What do you think of this deal

[Bill Allen]

I am in the market for a new rifle and I have come across a pre 1964 Winchester Model 70 in .243 that has caught my interest. The gun has an extremely, beautifully flamed maple stock, which was what first caught my attention. It has a DouglasXX barrel that has had about a 1000 rounds through it. It has been glass bedded and has a free floating barrel. Overall condition is nearly perfect. It has a Leupold 6x scope. The only downside is that the gun weighs 10 or 11 pounds and I would be mainly using it while sitting in a tree stand. The current owner has only shot handloads and I would only be shooting factory loads through it, if that makes any difference.

Any tips or advice or something I should consider I may not be thinking of? Is 1000 rounds through .243 custom barrel a significant number?

Thanks, for any input...

[gumpokc]

Sound sliek a nice rifle, as to 1000 rounds thorugh the barrel, it all depend son how hot he loaded them.

.243's have abit of a rep for shorter than normal barrel life, if loaded a steady diet of"hot" ammo.

I've the have the barrel slugged and checked out, and if ti checks out okay should be a really nice rifle.

[srab]

The weight of the rifle is a non-issue if you're hunting
from a tree stand, at least IMHO. It's not something that
I'd want to be carrying up and down canyons or mountains,
but if I was just sitting in a stand most of the time, I don't
think that the heavier weight would bother me.

As to 1000 rounds, I wouldn't let that bother me too much
either. A non-magnum cartridge like the .243 Win should
be fine for another 500 to 1000 rounds, and probably
much more. Just keep the barrel clean and let the
barrel cool between shots or groups.

As a general rule, I think that hand-loaders are pretty
obsessive-compulsive about their firearms. If the
current owner has taken that much care with the
outward appearance of his rifle, it would seem un-
characteristic for him to have neglected the bore.

My only reservation about this rifle, if I happened to
be in the market for a .243 Win, would be the nagging
question: why is the current owner willing to part
with this rifle? He's obviously got a lot of time and
effort, and probably money, invested in it.

I have two custom rifles that I've got 1000+ rounds
through. One, I just love to shoot! The other, I've
just never found a load that would shoot as consistently
and accurately as I think that it should, so every year
I shoot hundreds of rounds in an effort to find a load
that I'll be happy with. The former rifle, I'll never sell!
The latter, I'd be willing to dump in a second if someone
offered me a chance to get out from underneath it.

[Hi Ball]

Bill Allen......The issue of weather or not the 1000 rounds is going to play a major part in your decision to purchase the rifle in my humble opinion is nothing to worry about.

However, I would be much more concerned as how the rifle groups ammo shot in it now, with you pulling the trigger OK. The weight of the rifle is certainly something to address if your going to be carrying the gun up and down hills etc. I have a 6mm with a bull barrel and it does get heavy after several set ups before noon. If in a stationary position for long periods of time, it will not be a concern.

My wife shoots a .243 model 70 in a featherweight and it is all the deer rifle a person needs, if they place the bullet into the vitals of that deer. I personally drove a 100 grain bullet through almost 7.5 inches of solid wood at less than 70 yards. So it does have enough penetration on any whitetail buck with a well constructed bullet.

[Bill Allen]

I emailed the owner and he said that he purchased the rifle new, in 1958. He also said that his reason for selling it is that he lives in a small town and his only local gun range has been sold to developers so, he is selling all of his guns. He wants $1000 for the gun. Is it fairly priced?

Thanks, for all of the good information, guys. :)

[skeet]

Bill,
The gun, as a collectible Pre 64 Winchester M-70, has very little value other than as a pre 64 action. The stock isn't original and the bbl isn't either. As a shooter..well that may be a different story. If you like the gun and it suits you then by all means buy it. The scope is worth a 125 bucks used. plus the mounts and rings It hasn't been shot too much at a thousand rounds. If it is what you want then buy it. Try to get a 3 day inspection with return privileges though. Just remember though it is a half way semi custom gun and has no real value as a Pre 64 Winchester. 243 is a good caliber for deer

[Evan03]

1000, at first sounds like alot of cash to drop for a used rifle, then you get to thinkn that its probly got 6x42 leo on it, more than like leo rings, probly a 300 dollar stock, 400 into the custom tube.

my mod 70 featherwight is right at that mark after just the scope and rings were mounted, no custom stuff. then you add up everything else like the dies, bullets powder, and all the reloading stuff that was bought for this one rifle and your like holy crap.

maybe hell throw in the 243 dies, tell you the load hes been pushn and we can talk you into reloading for it. heck he might have few bullets and even powder if you tell him your interested.

as far as why hes getn rid of it, id say hes needing some cash or is just getn out of the sport. you almost never see a leo scope sold or traded on a rifle.

rifle loonies will almost never let them go. but they will drop rifles like a bad habit. in my opion the glass is worth more than the rifle.

in my opion though the rifle may be worth the grand hes asking you may be better of to find a used rem 243 for bout 300 bucks, send it in for custom tube(400) one that is suted to your style of hunting. and have your pick of stocks.

but then youd be left saveing for glass to drop on it.

Evan

[Dan Morris]

IMO, although it is a pre 64 action, the other modifications are valuable only to the original owner. The $1000 is about 200%
of the true value. It would probably be a good shooter.....
100% original M70's can be had for about $650/750.
Just my thoughts.
Dan

[Jack]

I agree with the others that the collector value of that rifle is minimal.
The big variable is the stock, which you can't evaluate without close examination. If that stock was done by a quality stockmaker, then the price of the rifle may be quite reasonable.
If it was done by a back yard amateur and isn't very well done, then the price is too high.
You're going to have to depend on your own eyeball on this one, I think

[PJgunner]

Something that has struck me as a bit odd is a heavy custom barrel on a .243. I wonder if he might have been trying for a varmint rifle rather than a deer gun? It might pay to find out what the twist rate is in that barrel. If he originally intended it to be a varmint rifle, he may have a slower twist rate than the standard 1 in 10" normally used in the .243. Remington messed up with there .244 Rem. by using a 1 in 12" twist when they first brought the cartridge out, considering it to be a varmint round. Winchester used a 1 in 10" twist so that bullets of 100 grains could be used as well as the lighter varmint bullets.
Caveat emptor!
Paul B.

[Bill Allen]

After considering all of the good information I have received on this thread and doing a little thinking, I have decided to pass on this particular rifle. I am sure it is a fine rifle but I think I can find a gun that would be a better fit for me. So the hunt goes on...... ;)

[Evan03]

what are you lookin for.

your willing to or atleast your willing to think about spending 1000 on a rifle???

this leads me to belive you might be willing to build something.. alot of times the end result is great better than your average rifle of the shelf by quite abit and would fit you and suite your needs because you built it to them.


as far as hunting rifle go i think thee realy pretty much all the same, most all sporter weight rifles weigh 7-7.5lbs, come in either walnut and blued, laminated stainless. and have either 22 or 24" barrels depnding on caliber.

then all the same companys make the compact or ultra light models that weigh less than the sporters. usualy in the 5.75- 6.5lb range. these rifles are offerd with 16.5-20" barrels.

in my opion it doesnt realy matter what manufacture you go with the selection is hunting rifles is fairly bland, and all compare pretty close to eachother. exscept more often then not the more exspensive hunting rifles off the shelf will be out shot by the less exspensive rigs, go figure that one.

in a hunting rig i would not stray from ruger, savage, winchester and rem. i dont see any need to looking anywhere else. ive got 3 of the 4 and all are very good. savagebeing the one ive never tried.

the way i see it is you can build a custom or get one of the 4 off the shelf and bang the livin dailights out of it every year hunting because thats what hunting rig is truly meant to be used as, a tool to hunt with not something purdy on the wall. then after years of hard work and ounce that barrels good in broke in it would be worth screwing a custom tube on along with the stock of your choice.

this is what my plans are for my 2506, use and abuse it for bout another 5 years atleast ounce accuracy fades off ill screw a tube on it one stepp bigger in counter and have it fluted. itl still weigh the same. but give me a tighter chamber. and also be a touch stiffer.

those are the plans, i doubt ill shoot out anything else, i dont shoot my other calibers near enough to warrant even thinkn about shooting them out.

good luck and keep us posted, sorry if i strayed off subject.

Evan

[denton]

What does it cost to replicate that rifle, new?

Daly action, $200 (not Winchester, and a long action)

Pac-Nor barrel, $300

Custom stock, $350, plus maybe some elbow grease.

Mounting the barrel, $75

Leupold scope, $300

Rings and bases, $40

Total, $1265, and it's new. $1,000 is too close to the cost to make a new one for my comfort. At $800, I might be interested.

[Evan03]

pacnor will screw in the tube and true the action for 400, give or take a few bucks depending on the barrel decided on.

[Bill Allen]

I am willing to spend $1000 or more on a new hunting rifle. Here is my current list of what I am thinking about although it is subject to change daily. :)

1. HS Precision This gun is expensive but looks like it would be a one time expense. Just add scope and you should be good to go, forever. That appeals to me. It looks like a perfect hunting rifle.

2. Sauer I picked up a friends Colt Sauer the other day and was quite impressed with the gun. Besides, it wears great looking wood and all things considered, I prefer wood. I think I would be happy with this rifle.

3. Sako Again, good reputation and a great feeling and looking gun. The barrels are supposed to be better than most production guns. I have heard that the old models are better although as of yet, I have not encountered one in person. I have picked up a couple of new ones and was impressed.

4. Winchester pre-64 model 70 Having a little piece of history always appeals to me. Having a gun that is a bit special would be nice.

5. Winchester Classic I haven't seen this gun in person yet, but it looks like it would be a good one. The pre-64 action with a few improvements. The Classic Deluxe looks especially appealing.

The Remington 700s would also be in the running as probably should others, but this is how I am thinking just now. I would like whatever I buy to be in the 2506 caliber. I don't know whether to buy a gun and maybe improve it over time as Evan has suggested or spend a little more money now and be done with it. I am still thinking and exploring and eagerly reading the information you guys are giving me. :)

[Evan03]

you can build the hs rifle alot cheaper of remington action.

get used rem in whatever caliber you want, or even a new adl and buil off of it. adls run bout 350 everywhere. but youd have stainless tube with blued action. wich isnt bad.

hs stock 300
rem action well figure 400
pacnor tube figure 500
trigger, free. adjust to 2-3lbs
rings and bases. figure 80
scope. 600
sling 20


sitn at 1900. thats about what youd have into the complete build. im not real positive what the hs rifle runs but id bet its over 2000.

heres the hs rifle id get. i could trim some cash of the remington build in few areas, i figured high on everything.

http://hsprecision.com/new_phr.htm
the sporter hs is 2175

heres pacnors web site

http://www.pac-nor.com/

[denton]

I've built a couple of custom guns, and keep swearing that I will never do it again. (This time I really mean it!!)

Pac-Nor will make you a custom pre-fit barrel, in stainless, for $300. My local 'smith will true an action, screw in the barrel, and check headspace for $60. That isn't bad, and I really like Pac-Nor. They did a 6.5x55 barrel for me, that I get to try out here in a couple of weeks.

My current project started with a brand new commercial #1 barrel in 7x57, already blued. With a little digging, I quickly became convinced that this is one of the nicest general purpose rounds available. Paid $87, shipped.

So here is how that project stacks up:

Barrel $87
Commercial Mauser action, all blued, drilled, tapped, $200
Synthetic stock, $85
Leupold rings and bases, $40
Burris FF2 scope, $200
Smithing $60

Total cost, up and running, $672 for a lightweight rifle, ready to hunt about anything but big bears. Whole thing just drops right into the synthetic stock.

If you have a strong, modern action, and run the 7x57 full throttle, with a 140 grain pill, it is a very close rival to the 270. At milder pressures, or smaller bullets, it is a low recoiling, pleasant to shoot round for big mulies, and everything on down in size.

[Mills]

Bill
Here's what I'm in the process of doing right now. Had a gunsmith purchase a Rem 700 Mountain LSS. He's using the action and the stock and then putting on a Lilja #2 barrel, cut to 24". He is blueprinting and bedding the action and free floating the barrel. Trigger job to 3#. Lapped dual dovetail rings. He guarantees 1/2 MOA with Nosler Ballistic Tips. $1300. Caliber is .280 Remington. I will be putting a Leupold 2.5-8x36 on it and the entire rig should come in right at 8 pounds. www.spearfishgunsmithing.com
Website is not complete yet, but you'll get what you need out of it. Check it out.

[Bill Allen]

Mills,

You, Denton and Evan all have me thinking about doing what you guys have done. It looks to be the least expensive way to get a real shooter plus it would be fun to build a rifle. I am very tempted..... ;)