30/06 165s

[gordon baxter]

Wondering a good bullet for elk and moose. I will be loading with imr 4350 at 56-57 gr. using 165 gr bullets. Or should i load some 180s.

[BILLY D.]

If'n it were me I'd load 180's. Moose and Elk both can soak up a lot of punishment. Both are strong willed.

I seen my son in law shoot a Moose and a perfect shot placement as I seen it through Binoculars. I went in one side and out the other. We tracked it almost 200 yards, and it was bleeding profusely. I forgot to mention, keep shooting as long as can make good hits.

He used a 165 Fail Safe. He is one to admire the shot so to speak and did not get a second shot off. It was not even close to being DRT. We could as easily lost the moose as easily as we found it.

I'd probably go with a Partition if I had my druthers. And stalk as close as you can.

Best wishes, Bill

[Dom]

I agree with Billy, and would load 180s, they are a good match for 30-06 and large game animals. One could even go easily with 200 grainers. Partitions have a proven reputation, another excellent bullet is the Swift A Frame, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

[L. Cooper]

Moose can be big. I vote for 180 grain Partitions as a minimum.

I think the 200 grain Nosler Partition is a very overlooked bullet in .30 caliber. Moose are often shot at relatively short range. Think about it.

[mrmiskin]

My 30/06 gets its best groups with the 180's just throwing that in there. i agree with everyone else the bigger the better for bullwinkle

[Dan Morris]

180 Hornadys give me excellent groups in my 06...
Dan

[Rev]

I would use:

220's for moose
180's for elk
165's for mule deer
150-165 for whitetail

I might add that my actual experience is limited to whitetails. I prefer 165's in the '06 for general use. The Sierra 165 expands readily, makes a huge exit, and nails whitetails on the spot with any kind of decent hit.

For a 600 lb.elk or a 1500 lb. moose using an '06, a Nosler partition would be in order for me.

Rev

[Cossack]

The 150 gr Barnes TSX or TTSX will give you the accuracy and awesome terminal performance it's noted for to cover all of the applications cited. It will also give you flatter trajectory and greater kinetic energy than a conventional 165 gr bullet.
I practice with Horanday but hunt only with Barnes.....19 consecutive one-shots kills is why.

[PJgunner]

Other than personal preference, I see no need for a premium bullet when using a 30-06. :eek: For one thing, deer don't wear kevlar. Bullet weights suitable for elk and moose using conventional cup and core bullets start with the 180 gr. bullets and go up to the 220 gr. bullets.
Now I hunt elk with something a tad more powerful than the 30-06; a .300 Win. mag. with 200 gr. Speer Hot-core bullets at 2930 FPS from my rifle's 26" barrel. If I were to use the 30-06 for elk, I might use a 180 gr. Sierra Pro-hunter, which just happens to be my choice for Mule Deer in the 06. I also might use a 180 gr. Nosler partition, but that would depend upon the condition where I'd be hunting. The area I usually hunt elk is quite wide open and shots are on the long side which is why I prefer the .300 mag. However, if I drew an area where shots would be mostly much shorter range and possibly mainly going away type shots, then the Nosler might be my choice.
I've never shot a moose and probably never will. Just too darned old and it's gotten priced well out of what my pension will allow.:rolleyes: I think, based on what I've read that my choice of rifle would be my .35 Whelen and 250 gr. Speer Hot-cores. :D
With that said, I think I would stick with the 200 gr. Speer Hot-cores in a 30-06. According to friends who do hunt moose every year who use the 06, that's their bullet of choice. They see no need for premium bullets and I'll go with what they say based on their experience.
I'll just add that if I'm using a conventional cup and core bullet, I'll try for the heart/lung shot slightly behind the shoulder. If I'm using a "premium" bullet, I'll try to punch it through the shoulder to hit the heart and lung area. Seccondary fragments from broken bone can go a long way toward bringing a big animal like an elk or moose to bag.
All the above is just MHO.
Paul B.

[PaulS]

I tend to be a big bullet fan. The 3006 is enough cartridge for the big animals without reservation. From a 24" barrel the 180 grain partition would be a minimum - borderline bullet in my opinion. I would opt for a 200 grain premium grade bullet for moose because sometimes they do wear Kevlar. I watched my brother hit a mudpack on a shoulder shot on a moose and the result was a very upset, very BIG animal. While he was coming at us he took 1 more shot from my brothers 300 mag and two from my 3006.
All three shots were fatal and he dropped less than twenty yards from us.
I was using 180 grain partitions and my brother was shooting his 180 grain bullets. That was the last time we loaded 180 grain bullets for moose.
So, find out if the moose in your area wear Kevlar before your hunt or just choose the largest premium bullet you can shoot well.

[Esox357]

Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition. Esox357.

[Larryjk]

For moose I would definitely go with no less than a 180 grain premium bullet. The Fail Safe has a tendency to plink right on through without opening up much. The last moose I shot was in 2000 and I used a 35 Whelen with 225 grain Barnes. First two shots went on through without much indicated distress on the mooses part. The third shot got the off shoulder and he went down on his side. I ran up and put a finishing shot right behind the head in the spine. End of moose. The impact point of the first three shots could easily be covered by your hand, right behind the left front leg. (Shots meant for the heart). The heart was mush from more than one hit. They can take a lot of killing. He was not totally unaware. He saw me and started to trot to his left, slightly quartering away. After the first shot he jumped a fence a little over 4 feet high with little effort. About two steps on the other side was when No. 2 hit him. He was headed toward a beaver pond and I didn't want him in there. I figured on shooting until I would have to stop to reload. I had one left in the magaine when it was over. Yes, I would use a lead core premium bullet of controlled expansion persuasion.:)

[dakotah]

I use 180 grain Hornady's in my 30-06 for deer. If I were limited to a 30-06 for elk (I am not) I would go to the 180 grain Nosler Partition. They shoot to the same point of impact and they both shoot great.
If I were to go after Moose and I have not, I would do some penetration testing to see if perhaps a 200 grain bullet might penetrate better. -- I love Partitions for big game.

BTW, My brother in law used 165 grain Sierras in his 300 Win Mag and followed the wounded elk all day and eventually lost it. But then I don't like Sierras for bug game unless it is much heavier than normal diameter weight etc. than other bullets. T o me they are comparable to ballistic tips.

[Rocky Raab]

The Sierra Game King is a fine bullet - until you stick it into a magnum and shoot game with it at close range. It was never designed for that, but people keep using it that way - and then condemning the bullet.

At 2800 fps muzzle speed or less, and standard bullet will work fine on elk. If you must have magnum smash, you also must invest in bullets that will withstand that smash.

The 30-06 will work on elk at standard velocities of 2800 fps (most .30-cal bullets are designed for that exact cartridge and speed) with bullets from 150 to 220 grains. The classic is the 180, but the 165 is 99% as good. Pick the one your rifle likes best and hunt with confidence.

That said, the Nosler Partition is NEVER a poor choice.

[dakotah]

The game king is a fine bullet?? For coyotes perhaps. I shot a white tail doe in the shoulder using a Game King 165 grain bullet from a 30-06 (not a magnum) and the bullet did not penetrate the shoulder. It blew up. I had to reshoot the wounded doe. If you want to recommend that type of performance -- well I don't know what to say.

[Rocky Raab]

And to all the people who have killed thousands of deer with Game Kings that did NOT blow up, you would say what?

You shot the deer again and the second bullet worked fine. Was it a Game King?

[Larryjk]

Rocky, I have used Sierra 250 gr SBT in the .338 and taken elk with them without a problem. I was told those bullets come apart in an elk, but I told them it always killed them when it came apart.

[dakotah]

I actually had to shoot it three times all good hits.

I was hunting with 5 other people. We hung the deer up and did an investigation. The bullet did not even damage a rib.

I suspect that for a gut shooter and bones don't enter into the equation.

[dakotah]

If a hunter uses a bullet that is heavy for the caliber or shoots the bullet slow enough, bullets that are fragile at higher velocities will work fine at lower velocities.

Of all the hunters (except the one below) I have talked to, to a person, they do not use sierra bullets on big game. Some of tried it and will never again. Others just have seen what other hunters results were and they will never use Sierras.

I did see one hunter that always shot deer and antelope in the head. He liked fragile bullets. He is the only hunter I know personnally that actually likes fragile bullets on big game.

[Larryjk]

Rocky, Apparently you and I are the only two gut shooters here since we use Sierras occasionally. Had any good gut shots lately?;)

[Rocky Raab]

Well, I've heard people say that Nosler bullets are crap, and I've heard people say they won't use Speers. I've heard some swear that Hornady bullets are junk, too.

So if I believed all of them, and also believed guys who rant about Sierras,I'd have nothing left to shoot except Barnes bullets. Oh,wait...I also hear Barnes bullets foul bores, are inaccurate and don't expand.

[PJgunner]

When I look back over roughly 54 years of deer hunting with a few elk hunts thrown in, I have to admit that I've probably used more Sierra bullets than anything else. For more years that I'l like to count, I used the Sierra 150 gr. Pro-hunters, although they did not call them that way back then. I came to the conclusion after cleaning up many a mangled deer and bloodshot meat that maybe that bullet was a tad too fragile and upon a friend's suggesttion went to the 180 gr. Sierra Pro-hunter, although again, they were not called that way back then. They were still in caifornia at the time and Sierra bulelts were about tow bucks cheaper than Hornady'zs or Speer's, probably due to shipping costs. I lived (existed?) in San Francisco way back then and the Sierras were just plain easier to get with the other two brands having to be special ordered.
The 180 gr. Sierra has worked for me for years and is the bullet of choice for deer in my 30-06. For elk, I have a 180 gr. load using the Nosler Partition that shoots to the same point of impact as my deer load.
On my last hunt for elk, I took a .300 Win. mag. that pushed a 200 gr. Speer Hot-core to 2930 FPS from my rifle's 26" barrel.
I shot a cow elk at a lasered 530 yards and that 200 gr. bullet couldn't have been doing much more than 30-30 speed way out younder but the cow dropped and never moved an inch.
Being as I'm now 70 years old, I doubt if I'll ever get to do a moose hunt, darn it! If I were to though, I believe I'd just take my .35 Whelen with some stiff loaded 250 gr. Speer Hot-cores and go a huntin'.
Paul B.

[Rev]

Originally posted by dakotah
The game king is a fine bullet?? For coyotes perhaps. I shot a white tail doe in the shoulder using a Game King 165 grain bullet from a 30-06 (not a magnum) and the bullet did not penetrate the shoulder. It blew up. I had to reshoot the wounded doe. If you want to recommend that type of performance -- well I don't know what to say.

They never did that for me. I shot numerous Texas Hill Country whitetails with that bullet in .30-06 at 2700 f/s MV at 100-200 yds.. I always had complete penetration with a gaping exit wound. Granted, these are 100-150 lb. deer.

Rev

[dakotah]

Rev

You were shooting 150-200 yards. I was about 10 yards. My loads was probably 2750 - 2800 fps. I am not sure what velocity your load would be at 150-200 yards but like Rocky said. The bullet is more likely to blow up at higher velocities.

I am not totally against Sierras, it is just that I like other bullets much better. IMO, if you shoot the Sierras at lower velocities and/or you have a heavy bullet for the game they should work. For me I don't have to use them and I think there are better bullets for big game out there.

Although I spend a lot of time on the prairie hunting, the range for shooting deer, antelope, elk varies greatly for me. I would hate to say the longest range -- but I shot a fine antelope at 20 yards the last time out. I suspect that there was a lot of luck being able to intercept his movement by following creek bottoms etc. But when he appeared he was sling shot range.

I was using a 280 on that hunt. Antelope have very strong leg bones. If I had placed the bullet through the front leg with that 280 it would have had to be a tough bullet to keep on going. And when he saw me when he topped the raise he was running and fast. I did not have a 'perfect' shot.

I always hunt deer while I am on the ground (never in a blind) - same with antelope and elk. In these instances I can not wait for the deer or whatever to stand broadside for me. I need to take the shot when it presents itself. Sometimes that is when a game animal is just going over a ridge. Sometimes it is when they are almost spitting range. I can't afford to use anything but top notch bullets.

[Rocky Raab]

Uhhh, it sure SOUNDED like you were an anti-Sierra guy.

I'll agree that at 10 or 20 yards, you do need a premium bullet. Or at least a bonded-core one like the Rem Core-Lokt, the Speer Grand Slam or Nosler Accubond.

But in that situation, it simply isn't fair to criticize (much less advocating a virtual boycott) of a bullet not designed for that. If I may say so, it's also a bit disingenuous to not mention the extremely short range in your wounded deer tale. That alone not only explains but completely exonerates a failed bullet.

[dakotah]

If you take a 30-30 bullet made by any manufacturer and load it to 30-06 velocities. It becaomes a bullet that is virtually useless for deer, while it may be a perfectly good bullet at 30-30 velocities.

In a hunting condition -- that I have never had and never will -- shooting at a deer strolling by while I am sitting on my duff in a tree stand almost any bullet will do. A .22 rimfire is a deer killer in the right circumstances.

In hunting in the open spaces such as were I normally hunt a bullet that works only in a certain velocity range just is a very poor choice.

Sure, getting a deer out of bed and drilling it before it stretches is fine but to rely on a bullet, while good for that style of shooting, for a hurried shot at close range that is not my choice. I will blast those bullet designs all day long.

So a 35 rem will factory loads is an excellent deer killer when used in a tree stand or were shots never exceed a certain yardage. Try a 35 Remington in the Rockies for Mule Deer. If you do you a re limiting yourself needlessly and perhaps one out of twently otherwise possible shots with a 300 Win Mag is possible with that 35 Rem. Nothing wrong with the 35 Rem in a certain hunting condition.

This whole thread reminds me of a guy who uses 125 grain bullets in his 300 Weatherby and then he felt he needed a faster bullet and went to a 30-378 and used his 125 grain standard (not premium) bullet. He claimed that was the best deer killer ever. He wounded a few but when he killed one it went down like lightning. That thought pattern is along the same lines of what I have seen with the Sierra bullets. That is -- they are more fragile than many - perhaps similar to the early Nosler Ballistic Tips. If a Sierra bullet is loaded right or using a heavier bullet than in other manufacturers or using a heavier caliber than with other manufacturers or if hunting where you know youe shooting is at long enough range were the bullet has slowed down then OK.

Recommending a bullet for deer hunting without stating conditions is as bad as lamb-blasting the bullet for being unreliable without conditions. Hunting deer in Alabama is not the same as hunting deer in Wyoming.

[skeet]

Have used 'em for years. Never had any trouble with them. At all ranges. I once shot a deer 10 times. He just wouldn't go down and stay down. Bad bullets? Nah everyone was in a good kill zone. Most were at very short range. He finally rolled over and played dead. I was kinda young and just knew that ol deer was gonna get away. That was with a shotgun and slugs. All except one were clear through. The only bullet I can say for sure that ever didn't work right was a 46 gr OPE in a 220 Swift. Hit a groundhog at about 50 yds. Killed him. ..almost skinned him and never penetrated past the skin. I guess most any bullet can fail at one time or another... either from outside influences or possibly a bad bullet. Does happen occassionally I guess. We always remember the bad things that happen...hardly ever all the good things in life:D

[Larryjk]

dakotah, Just what the heck do you use for a hunting bullet and where do you normally plan on hitting the animal you are shooting at? I am not exactly a spring chicken at shooting big game, and I have definite reasons for shooting where I do on their anatomy. I have used damn near every brand of bullet that is available, and when used humainly, any of them can make an adequate kill. I do pick my shots and put the bullet into specific places. I usually eat what I shoot (in normally edible animals) and don't want a bloody mess (my wife cooks it and generally eats it also).
There are always exceptions to every rule. If you have read any of the books on Elmer Keith, and if you had ever met him, you would know why he liked larger calibers and heavier bullets for caliber. A lot of his game was shot "going over the hill", as in what is fondly called a "Texas heart shot". He needed calibers and bullets that would penetrate through the body to the heart and lungs. What I am saying is that if you will be taking that kind of a shot, if necessary, you should have a gun and bullets that make it possible.
Last, if you are a hunter, and not just a shooter, you pick your shot.

[dakotah]

I would say it is just the other way around. People that sit in stands are smore shooters than hunters. They are the ones who pick their shots more easily. I suspect you have never hunted in the mountains or the plains???

[Rocky Raab]

As he is from Rawlins, I suspect he has.

Dakotah, there's a tone in your posts that is a bit grating. It showed in your comments about Sierra bullets and now it shows again in your comment about stand hunting. If it isn't meant, you may wish to think hard about your word choices and phrasing. If it IS meant, then I as Mod of this forum need to watch you more closely.

[Larryjk]

dakotah, I will give you a few facts about myself.
(1) I have never hunted from a tree stand, but I would like the experience.
(2) I have never hunted deer in S. Dakota but I am moderately familiar with that state. I grew up in Nebraska and hunted the sand hills, the eastern edge of the hills, and some of the hills of Stanton County.
(3) I lived in Colorado for 10 years and hunted all over the western half of that state. Now I live in Wyoming (35 years) and have a fair amount of hunting experience in that state.
I think I have enough experience to say I can handle anything North America has to offer. I have also hunted in Texas and Oregon and spent time in Alaska. I don't consider myself the great white hunter, but I can hold my own with pistol, rifle or shotgun. I have never shot a deer in the shoulder, but through the heart and through the lungs. I have also shot a large number in the head but not sport hunting. I don't know how many because I have kind of quit hunting deer. One winter I had the experience of control shooting about 75 head and it kind of ruined deer hunting for me. I have hunted moose, elk, whitetail and mule deer, antelope and one fallow deer, and taken them all, most more than once.
I don't know what you are so darn worked up about. Let's just leave it at that.

[scalerman]

I use Sierra 140 Grain Boat Tail hollow Points in my 270- every last one of the animals that I have shot with that bullet has been dead as dead can be. I find that my rifle loves those bullets and that the game does not. I'm not sure was all the fuss is about. Use what ever bullet works for you- why on earth are you telling someone else what they should and shouldn't use. If you don't like Sierras then by all means use something else- the other bullet makers deserve to eat too. Making your comments about how bullets haver performed for you is one thing- but calling another's abilities and judgement into question is quite another. Grow up.

[dakotah]

It is not meant

The point I am trying to make and evidently is not and was not clear is this.

Hunting is not the same every where even though the game might be 'deer'.

Shooting from a blind or tree stand at game, game that does not know you are there is way/far different than still hunting in the mountains or the prairie where the deer or game may see you when you are still a mile away -- where the hunter has to walk to the game rather than the other way around. If a bullet, load is awsome from a tree stand that does not make it a perfect deer round.

One of my favorite handloading wirters and I think one of the top experts in handloading makes recommendations on handloads for deer hunting. The loads he recommends would likely work very well from a tree stand or hunting close range. I don't think he has ever hunted the same areas as Elmer Keith though. Or if he did his recommendations do not seem to reflect it.

I know a guy who hunts with a 30-378 and uses heavy Sierra match-king bullets and he does well with it. He normally shoots his deer at a longer range than most people would even consider.
I suspect that the bullet might be traveling at less than 2,000 ft per second when it arrives. Is that a good deer load??? For him yes. Is it a good deer load to be recommended to others, IMO - no!

I think it is the same with many other deer loads, bullets, calibers etc. They might be great for one area or one type of hunting but to recommend that load as a good deer load often should be qualified, IMO.

I read an article on Elk hunting where the author said that using a 30-06 would be excellent in this one area for elk. In another area he recommended at least a 300 mag. Finally, he said in another area he felt a 338 Win Mag to be minimum. I have hunted elk in all the areas he talked about. I had the same feelings about those areas. In one area I carried a very light 308 Winchester, which some would say was way too light and they might have been right but the elk were much easier to shoot even though it was a ***** getting to where the elk were. In Colorado I have used a 350 Mag in the dog-hair pine and a 338 Win in the more open areas. I suspect that a 358 Win would have worked as well in the dog hair but I would not have wanted anything lighter than the 338 where I was hunting in the open. A friend however, hunts in the southern rockies of Colorado along the continental divide. He uses a 300 Weatherby mag and has averaged more than one elk for every year he has hunted.

I believe and strongly believe that deer hunting and elk hunting is similar in this one aspect. It aint the same everywhere!

I am not an 'expert' in hunting though and I have hunted for over 50 years. There are hunters that are better at hunting the areas that I hunt than me even my home town area.

[Rocky Raab]

The point that hunting situations vary is perfectly valid, of course. But the flip side of that is equally valid: just because one bullet doesn't fit a given situation doesn't make it a bad bullet.

I think we've explored this one sufficiently.

Thread closed.