Magnums Not Needed (Elk & Deer)
 

I don't care where you hunt or what you hunt magnums calibers are not needed. If you just use common sense you will figure out tha about 50% of hunting stuff is not necessary. Why do deer hunters wear camouflage? Deer can only see blue and yellow, the rest is in black and white. Why do rifle shooters have scope mounts with adjustments on the rear mount, it's not needed. Why are hunting knives either camouflage or black? It just makes them hard to find. Think about all the money spent over the years for unnecessary gimmicks. If one of those New York magazine writers suggested hunting with red boots many of you would rush to Wal- Mart and buy a pair. This new WSM faze has really got your attention and your money. WAKE UP.

So other hunters don’t see me. Crunch and crash their way to where I am, and ask stupid stuff like "have you seen anything?" I do wear blaze orange headgear.

Although I realy do see your point.

I did stop wearing my Carhart jacket, with a white tee shirt ;):D

I am right with you on many of the things you had to say :D

i picked up my 243 tonight and some of the other patrons of the store asked me what i needed a 243 for. I said deer, and they looked at me like i should go over to the daisy section because a 243 and a bb gun should be in the same catagory.

while i was having the paperwork completed i went over to the tikka rack to see what else was there, there were 14 tikkas and they were either 7mm mag or 300 win mag.

how big is "big enough"?

JMO

SS

razmuz, Why don`t you stop beating around the bush and say what you really think! :D My wife has a cousin that wears hunter orange coverhalls and stands in the open where the hole world can see him and has more deer about run over him than anyone else I know. I`ve seen him pass up 2 or 3 nice bucks a day because he thought someone esle might get a shot at them and still kill a nice buck later in the week. I`m begining to think deer are atracted to hunter ornage if it`s where they can see it easily.

Raz,
Theres alot of truth to what you say. Cant say I go along with all of it though. I do believe theres a place for camo. Hunting predators, calling, for example. Not that you must be in the latest style, but to blend somewhat and not shine, including your weapon gleaming in the sunlight, seems to help. Tried both ways, theres truth to it.

As for magnums. Yeah, you can kill elk, moose whatever you want with 308s and whatnot. I dont argue. I do however like my 300 Win Mag for alot of things, including deer. Flat shooter, lots of energy, clean kills, whats not to like? Im not too caught up in gagets and latest wssms or anything, but dont see any reason why you should come down on folks who CHOOSE to spend their money on them. I have lots of guns, different calibers, and choose what I use in what circumstance sometimes on what the situation is, and sometimes on what I feel like shooting. Sometimes I feel like getting the old Mag out and knocking one off his feet. Anything wrong with that? I like guns, and some are magnums. Anything wrong with that?

As for camo knifes, dont own one, dont know that Ive ever seen one. Mines made of deer antler horn and hammered crosscut saw blades with inscription on it. Anything wrong with that?

Maybe I took this the wrong way, but you did choose the frown for your lead on this thread. I know several other guys on here that tout the mags and like to shoot them. Not that they are the only weapon for the job but like them. See any problems there?

Dont be so quick to judge and condemn. I have argued with folks on this board about the short mags that say they are better than the old ones. I still hold to that. But I never put them down and told them to WAKE UP if thats what they want to spend their money on and enjoy shooting. Its their cash. No law against it. They are fine rifles, even if they are not what they are touted to be.

Not a good topic in my humble opinion.

Take Care
Andy

Whatever works for you I guess: Got a 7mm mag and a 257 Roberts and just love the heck out of both of them.

Well put Andy L.

I might just have to pick up some of them red boots he mentioned, when I pick up my new gimmick 300 WSM.

To each their own!

well if we all where to just buy the "original" and leave the "New" design stuff on the counter where it belongs i guess we all would be shooting flint locks, no wait that was an improvment/gimmick over the sticks and stone devices. oh progress, it is such an awfull thing.;)

Raz you brought a smile to my face this morning. Agree with a lot of what you say however new stuff has certainly made my hunting a little easier and more comfortable. My first pair of hunting boots were standard military leather. Now I wear goretex one. A lot dryer. My first raincoat was a yellow rubber one. Now I wear swede. A lot dryer.

There is a lot of stuff that has helped however I agree that you really must use your head where purchasing new junk. A lot of it is crap but some of it sure has helped.

Raz,

I got all my camo stuff when I lived in Germany because like gregarat, some German always had to stop and gawk. One fella called his whole family over (they were on a forrest walk), to see the hunter. A set of Advantage clothing, Advantage tape, and boots, all mail order, the problems lessened for me.

But here in Oklahoma, I will probally do the old BDU's just because I have them, not because they are cammo.

Never fails if I wear camo I don't see SQUAT! If I wear jeans and a t-shirt (This is Texas it is jeans and t-shirt weather except in February and August. Which one calls for shorts instead of jeans and the other cals for a demin jacket add-on.

My grandfather has killed more dear with a 30-30 or a 222 rem than most folks have ever seen. His daddy did the same thing with a single shot rifle and a pair of striped overalls. Neither believe in scopes.

I think you nailed it buddy.

GoodOlBoy

GOB,
I dont doubt it. Dont argue it. MY point was, I like mine and dont see a problem with me using it, if I want to. Do YOU? Ive killed deer with 223, 22-250, 243, 25-06, 280, 30-30, 30-06, ect... and bows. All clean kills. Killed several wearing Carharts or jeans instead of camo. But, whats the problem if someone wants to be a little more hidden or wants to shoot a bigger gun, just because they want to?

Im surprised MT Pockets hasnt chimned in here. I know he loves the mags.

Tell you what, I dont want to argue, just didnt like the way this started off. Everyone do what you want, we will all kill what we want and have fun.

Over and Out.

;)

Andy

Sure they magnums may be overkill for alot of things, but so what, at least that way you have a clean kill. It's our money so we will spend it on whateve we want, just mind your own business. Personally, I have a 300 win mag and I will use it for anything just because I want to, it's better to have too much than not enough.

....then again, it could be argued that guns are not necessary for the take of Elk and Deer. Why bother with a noisy gun when you have a nice sharp stick and a rock?

:confused:

As far as magnums for deer or elk. Its all up to the individual. If I got a plane tomorrow for Mt to hunt elk, my 338(it ain't mine anymore but all I have to do is ask) would probably go but as a backup gun. I would probaby take my faithful Model 700 in 280 Rem load up some good 160 gr Noslers at about 2800 fps and go it. I would see no reason for a big thumper. Now the real reason, it hurts to shoot the Big Boys and I'm a recoil wimp.

I know this guy in Northern NH that is what I would call a real good hunter. This guy is a tracker. He is up and down mountains all day. Hunts like a mad man. Know his game and tracks down a big boy every year, not only in NH but in the Wilderness Regions of Northern Maine. Usually has 2 over 220 lbs hanging every year.

What does he use? Believe it or not he shoot a 300 Weathery Mag. Over 10 lb rifle. Too much for me but works for him. He is about 66 now and still totes that rile. All he every sez about it "Why should I have to look for something that should be laying there". To each their own.

something
 

I had to get in on this one. I don't consider myself a magnum freak but my favorite rifles are weatherby mags. I need them. That's what I tell my wife. There fast, flat shooting and fun to do load development (rifles look nice to).

With that said I also have another fav., my custom 6.5. Shoots like a dream its light and was made just how I wanted it.

The point is all the rifles and gadgets I have are fun, cool, or a must have. That's what keeps this sport interesting. It sure does get expensive though.

Its too late to change me. I love this gun craze too much.

Okiebowhunter

obh.....you and I would get along just great!!! :D

OBH and TD,
Here Here!!! :cool: :D

Andy

I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is only one criteria by which to judge hunting rifles and gear, that is, does it get the job done. If your .222 and striped coveralls and a t-shirt puts meat on the table then praise the LORD. If you need a 30-378 Weatherby and scent lock camo to do the same job praise the LORD. Hunting is more about spending time out doors than killing something. If you get stressed about what you are wearing or shooting then, in my mind anyway, the enjoyment has been stripped from you. Go out shoot what ever caliber of rifle that you feel comfortable with (and is legal), wear whatever is comfortable (and legal), and do it in a legal and ethical manner. The last thing we need in the hunting fraternity right now is more little groups saying that they are right and everybody else is wrong. That is exactly what the anti-hunters want. A military leader looks to divide and conquer his enemy. It is much easier to defeat a smaller group than a large one. Sermon over.

I agree that magnums aren't necessary for deer or elk, but I've only got one centerfire rifle and it's chambered in .300 Win Mag. I've used it from fox to deer, caribou, elk and had a round in the chamber when I stumbled upon a grizz eating a gutpile. It felt like a BB gun.

Anyway, I agree that magnums aren't necessary. I'd gladly hunt deer with a .243 and elk with a .270, there are also some great larger non-magnum calibers which are great elk rounds like the .338-06 or .35 Whelen. I do prefer a 200 grain bullet, these animals deserve a bit of respect. With that said I feel like my .300 Win Mag is turning into a classic round, heck it's been around 40 years or so and is always the round other magnums compare themselves to. If others want to shoot the newest & greatest more power (and powder) to them, just don't make me have to change. I still run windows 95 on my computer so you all know how cutting edge I am.

But while magnums may not be necessary, they're sure nice. Kind of like a 4 wheel drive pickup, how often do you really need it ? But it's sure nice to have available when you do. I practice a lot all year long and am very comfortable shooting from field positions to 300 yards and with a rest to 400. If conditions were right I would (and have) shoot an elk at 400 yards. I wouldn't be comfortable to do this with some of the smaller rifles. I know everybody knows a guy who knocked a bull dead with one shot from his .270 at 700 yards with 130 grain bullets, but it wouldn't be me.

Gadgets ? Well, I hunt in the same clothes I feed cattle in except I throw on a blaze orange vest when required. I'm not much into camo or gizmos but I do love my GPS (I did't get the camo one, it was $20 extra). I don't understand camo underwear or toilet paper. I put a blaze orange strip on my knife handle and thought about inventing blaze orange toilet paper.

While we're talking about magnums being necessary, how about the duck sloughs full of guys shooting 3 1/2" bismuth at teal & wood ducks all day long ? This is where I see magnums used when I don't need to be. For me, I just want to get the job done responsibly and quickly.

I think there's a need for a distinction here.

What razmuz originally said was that a lot of things like magnum rifles and camo aren't NEEDED to hunt deer. He's right.

What some of the rest of you said was that you WANTED to use those same things. You're right, too.

There's no disagreement, just a difference of emphasis.

Most of you know that I don't like magnums. For my own style of hunting, I CHOOSE to limit my shots to under 300 yards and use moderate dartridges. I can hold on hair and drop anything I choose to shoot at.

Last week, some of the Mods got together in Pennsylvania to whack some ground hogs and meet each other (for the first time!). Petey and some others shot super-hyper calibers, and managed to hit hogs at nearly 700 yards. Honest.

The rifle I brought was a 22 Hornet.

We hunted and they shot at hogs for hours. Guess who managed to make the first confrimed kill? Ol' Rock - offhand at 114 yards. (Then I missed two in a row!)

I think I had more fun, but I bet they'd say the opposite.

I didn't NEED a 6.5-284 ray gun to kill a hog. They CHOSE to use guns like that. ALL OF US had a great time and killed hogs.

(FWIW, does anyone else think it's hilarious for a guy to use a magnum rifle so he can shoot deer at XXX yards - and then don scent-lok duds?)

A lot of good points have been made here. I guess I'll add my 2 cents to the growing pile of change. I've used 2 rifle calibers exclusively for my deer hunting (here in ohio, we don't have the luxury of using them, so I have to go out of state if I want to do so). Primarily all of my "rifle" deer have been shot with a 30-06, the rest with a 7mm Rem Mag. I know I don't need all that power, but I'd rather have too much than not enough. I've also seen enough deer hit poorly by inexperienced hunters using marginal calibers, that I'm glad the first deer rifle I used was an '06. I've always been a proponent of using enough gun for whatever game you pursue, so I'll probably never use anything smaller than a 25 caliber on deer (no offense to those of you who do, I just don't feel the need to try). Bigger calibers = larger wound channels and more tissue destruction. I believe you should use the largest bore diameter you can shoot comfortably and accurately.

BTW, Rocky, it is hilarious to see a long range gun with scent blocker clothing

gd357

Andy
 

No buddy I don't see a thing wrong with folks using what they like to so long as they do so saftely. Hunting whitetail in a cow pasture with a 300 RUM is not my idea of safety btw since that bullet is going to keep moving after it his said whitetail. My point as that folks seem to focus on bigger fast better calibers, and not can they hit the broadside of a barn with what they already have. An interesting fact. In the state of Texas it is illegal to hunt deer with a rimfire round. Acorrding to the Texas Wildlife department more deer are taken with a 22lr each year than any other caliber (A rimfire round). When we talk about what you should and shouldn't use keep in mind that many hunters substitute a bigger caliber for a lack in accuracy on their part. Men in the 1800s took deer, elk, and even bear with pistols and rifles. When you consider what skill it takes to kill an animal with an original 45 colt round (255 grain RN lead bullet in front of 40 grains of black powder in a ballon head case moving approx 675-690 fps front an article I read) then it is staggerin that some folks say it cannot be done unless you have (for example) a 180 grain 30 caliber boat tail ballistic tip (or HP if you prefer) bullet moving in excess of 3000fps. . . . . . .

On the flip side. If you want to shoot mule deer and elk at six hundred yards a 45 colt, or 30-30 ain't gonna get you there unless you are not only skilled but DANGED lucky. (I won't say it cannot be done because I have seen Bob Munden shoot ballons at 100 yards with a daisy BB gun.) But then again a 45-120 with a 45 caliber bullet moving only around 1000 fps or slower WILL do it. So again why do you need a 300 RUM? Personally because I want one IS a valid answer because each to his or her own. Because thats all that will get the job done is not a valid answer. Thats what I was talking about.

GoodOlBoy

Guess I like my 7mm mag for the reason of the wide range of reloading that can be done with it and very seldom do I shoot factory.
My 257 roberts is the same way and a fun gun to shoot but guess I would not try it on anything bigger then deer.
That is what I like and feel comfortable with and thats the way it is in this camp. lol

Well, I certainly believe in the power of good marketing, and the US gunpress is undoubtedly the most influental.
Just look at European firearms manufacturers and see which calibers they supply.

Fast cartridges, big optics and long laser ranged distances seems to be very hot topics today. When did you last read anything about stalking?

This year I've made several long range shot on trouble deer (fraying damage) because of the foresters requests. Normally I feel elated and melancholy after a successful stalk, but this time it was satisfactory but too much of the melancholy. It was just a routine job.

"All to their own" as many have said, I just hope it doesn't develop into something where the novice feels he has no place unless he mounts his duper variable on his super magnum that needs a clearance from his laser rangefinder to fire.

I hope that no development in the market will ever cheat a hunter of that elation a stalk gives me, and I hope that the hunter that wants to use all this new equipment or shoot long range will thourougly enjoy his experience!

There you go Sierra22, thats probably more then a bit of my "prejudice". I feel like (personal thing here) I am cheating when I plug a critter at beyond 100 yards. Heck to be honest one of my goals is to take my 45LC carbine up to my brother in laws in montana one year and plug an elk with it at CLOSE range (If you can kill the freakin' thing with a recurve bow I can kill it with my 45.) Besides it takes all the fun out of it. I guess I have seen to many hunting shoes with some guy whispering 400 yards downrange just before his buddy snaps the spine on a antelope with a 7mm wsm and they stand there talking about what a great shot it is while the critter drags its back half crying and trying to get away (Saw this on a video in a wal-mart recently that was playing on one of their tvs in sporting goods. No wonder the Antis hate us.)

GoodOlBoy

You know, this sounds wild, but its the truth. My 300 Win Mag with a factory 150gr Core Lokt, gives clean quick kills on whitetails, many times over in the last 20 years that I have had it. And, with a good boiler room hit, does less damage than deer hit the same with my 243, 25-06 and even 22-250.

GOB, you are correct, and I dont go slingin a 300 piece of lead accross open pastures, when I dont know whats back there. But, I do like to shoot it and it does sweep em off their feet, in almost all cases. And, in a situation I had a few years back, it got me a GOOD buck, I may or may not have gotten with any other gun I own. Not lack of marksmanship, but it was a shot that I wouldnt have tried at that angle with anything else, knowing it was going to knock him down for good, where it may or may not have with a 243. Now, before I get attacked for being a slob hunter, I was sure of the shot and had a rest with plenty of time, he was dead before I pulled the trigger. After the recoil and I got the scope back on him, all I could see was horns sticking up. But, I wouldnt have even thought of doing it with a smaller round. His horns are on my den wall and the sausage was good too. ;)

I will have to say, that was the only time on a whitetail, that I think I NEEDED that gun. But, theres lots of times that I LIKE having that gun.

Andy

It's really to each his own on a subject like this. And really, variety is the spice of life. If everybody used an '06 we'd be dull hunters (albeit 99% happy!).

I'm in the middle based on my hunting style -- and use an '06 w/180 gr bullets. I don't recommend the 22 holes nor the magnums for most big game animals.

Could go the other way and say: "Man, you should give the game a chance and use the new .15 PemOff rimfire".

I could be swayed to use a magnum if I needed the extra yardage though. I'd rather have too much gun than not enough -- you owe it to your game to take them cleanly. As long as the hunter is satisfied, including unnecessary meat damage from magnums or bad shots, that's all that really matters, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Well I have to agree with that Dom. I have gone far enough off the deep end in the other direction that my current goal is to be able to take Elk, and a large variety of game with my 45LC carbine. Not only to prove that it can be done cleanly, but because I want to. If you can take it with a recurve bow, I would bet can take it with my 45LC.

GoodOlBoy

GOB,
Ever notice we, many on this board, seem to take the long way around to come to the conclusion that we agree on things. :)

Guess thats whats forums are for, huh?

Have a Good Day Buddy
Andy

I was only using my 308Win... :D
Maybe that's why I didn't hit anything farther than 350. ;)

I think you have it right on the magnums
I used one for years , I got tierd of the
recoil and the weight , I switch to a 270
first year I killed a 4 point bull flip him
head over heels at 175 yards . I think
that it enoff power for any one . I think
most guys use the big bores for hype
and show . My uncal always told me to
use one gun ,git to know it and know it
in side and out and you will kill any thing
that you want
Camo, I like it for one reasson or mybe
two. I like to hide from the hunters and
most of your sent locks come in camo, I
know you can buy a sent lock suit but for
the same coast I can git water proof ,sent
lock and warmth all in one instead of
buying 3 or 4 differant artcales of colthing .

All the 'stuff'...
 

To razmuz: I don't think you were beating around the bush - you said what you meant and I agree with a whole lot of what you are saying! It seems every couple of years or so the gun media and manufacturers go wild trying to come up with something new for hunters and sportsmen to spend their monies on when the stuff that has been out for decades is darn hard to improve upon - especially when it comes to cartridge designs. About 98% of all this WSM and WSSM stuff is sales hype and trajectory chart exaggerations in order to either maintain or to boost sales. I'm not against progress but you can manipulate the laws of physics only so much with certain givens, and this stuff has been worked on by gun nuts and experts for decades and decades!

magnums not needed?
 

When I started hunting years ago, I would agree with you. Krags, .300 Savages, .30-30's, and the real cannon was an '06 were the calling of the day. Game in the West was more plentiful, less hunting pressure, and more places to hunt, hence closer shots. If you want to just fill the pot, the I will agree with you and even in the West where I hunt, a handgun is all you would need.

Now I haven't killed a deer in years. I've killed enough deer I don't need to "just kill a deer". I don't "need" the meat, if I did, I sure a heck wouldn't be hunting with the cost of gas, licenses, and associated costs, I after "the" deer. When I get him, I cherish each and every bite as I look at his head on my wall.

I carry a 7mm Remington Magnum and pass up 27"-29" bucks every year. I'm looking for something over 30". It just maybe over 250 yards and I'm a horrible judge of distance and wind speed. I sight my rifle in 3" high at 100 yards and I'm pretty good on holding hair out to about 375 yards and my friends, thats alot of fudge factor. Yes, I have a laser range finder, but sometimes you just don't have the time to get it out. I shoot heavy bullet so as to not blood shoot the meat and to get the flat trajectory and penetration if I get a less then perfect broadside shot.

Elk, now that's a different story. I see hackers every year and it doesn't matter what caliber, that can't shoot, wound animals, and can't track an elephant thru a snow bank. I agree the magnum shooters seem to practice less because of cost or they are afraid of the recoil and noise of their rifles. It's marksmanship, but it still requires a heavy bullet, because try as we may, sh.. happens. A light bullet that doesn't penetrate all the way through an animal only damages half of the animal. I've only kill a dozen or so elk, but all have been dropped dead in their tracks. The rifle was my 7mm with a Speer Grand Slam 160 grain and they have all exited.

I use Redfield one piece bases because my 56 year old Model 70 Winchester had it's holes drilled off center! Cranking all the windage adjustment on the Leupold scope couldn't get it centered up on the paper at 100 yards. With the windage adjustment I could get the "rough" adjustment completed, then center up the windage adjustment on the scope.

As for camo, it's the broken pattern. I agree folks have gone crazy, but, they have really done us a great service for varmit and waterfowl hunting.

Bottom line the excise tax we pay on all our hunting and fishing gear pays supports wildlife resources those sandal wearing grandol bar munching freaks like to go to so they can knock we who pay for it all.

Just shoot whatever you like to shoot. It doesn't matter at all! I hunt mainly moose and caribou and have used everything from 223 to 300 WSM's. They all kill! I've even seen a moose get taken down with a .22 rimfire. If you like the gun, and can shoot it well then use it. I've even killed my share of geese with my 30-06, hahaha! And still had lots of meat left for cookin, lol

I like big guns for long range, quick acting performance-flat trajectory and low wind drift makes it easy to shoot something at a long distance.

im tired of the wsm specific bashing latly,

i think that it needs to be made that if your to talk down on a caliber that one qualification has to be that youve atleast yanked the trigger on it ounce.

How about this then, you use your .308 or whatever non-magnum of your choosing on an elk standing 500 yards away and I'll use my .325 wsm. We'll see who drops the elk faster. Personally I like the extra firepower so I dont have to walk so far to retrieve my animal. Both can kill but I trust the extra power to fly through bone. I killed a gemsbock a couple of years ago with my dad. He used a 3006 and I was using a .300 weatherby mag. After both shooting at him and not nowing for sure who got him we field dressed the animal. Both of his bullets were found stuck in the shoulder while the .300 weatherby had made it completely through both sides destroying everything in its path.

im not saying the wsm's are the cream of the crop. as far as im concernd they are just difrent and thats good. i have tried the 270wsm. ive got the dies on my reloading bench and dont plan to give them up because i happen to like the caliber. but wasnt particularly fond of the rifle the caliber was chamberd in.

me im not magnum shooter. ive the magnum thing a try with the 300winnie, but to alot its no magnum. and to be honest it had quite alot of recoil for a rifle that weighed over 8lbs without scope on it.

thats the reason i went back to lighter rifle in the 3006. recoil compared to the heavy 300win woulkd be debatable on wether or not its less due to the rifle weigh almost 1lb less.. i actualy sited in the 3006 and punched out enough groups to burn up all 20rds i had on hand the last time out.

the 300win i bore sited at 25yds steped back to one hundred. fired two rds made scope adjustments. fired two more and it was dialed in. shot 3 more into decent group and i was ready for elk season and not wanting to touch the thing from the bench anymore. i even tried fitting alittle sand bag between the but and myshoulder but that just didnt work well.

maybe if i put in 50lbs or so in my older ages ill give her ago again. just right now its not my cupp of tea.

but with my270wsm exsperince id have to say the 300wsm may be calling my name but i cant say how ill like it or if it becomes my dream caliber.

then i see all these people downing calibers that are new and havent tried them just because theyre new is no reason to like or dislike them. you may be set in your ways other hunters might not.

let the hunters who have exsperince with the calibers give the best information. ill tell you i concider the wsm and win277 calibers about as close to identical as you can get. but i still like them both alot.

Evan

I understand people not liking the magnums or larger calibers because they don't enjoy the recoil and they feel comfortable making a kill shot with a smaller caliber. I have no argument with that. I know a man from India who's killed many blue bulls with a .22lr. Everybody has their own preference. As long as they can make an ethical and clean kill shot then I dont care. Every caliber from a .22 on up has the potential to kill. Very few can blow through a big game animals shoulder blade like it wasn't even there though. A .243 to the shoulder on an elk and thats an injured animal, a .338 winchester mag and that elk isn't going far, if it even moves at all. I personally just like using the larger calibers because it leaves less room for human error and to be honest I really enjoy the recoil on a rifle as long as it doesnt break my shoulder. Why else would I have a .50 bmg and a 500 smith and wesson in my gun collection?