12GA rifle From Hell--
 

Visiting back here to tell you folks about a project a
few of us over on AR have completed.It is called
12GA From Hell(12Ga FH),First it is a long straight brass
12ga cartridge we made by putting rim on bmg brass and
straightening case,Two fellas has put the cartridge in
big Borchardt falling block actions, and I put mine in a
Savage 210 bolt action , with long heavy barrel and heavy stock.
In testing I got a 730 gr hard lead Dixie Terminator slug
up to 2700 fps.Here is a picture of our case next to
a regular plastic case,which we can also fire in our
chambers..Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/1212.jpg

Well, after the obligatory "Holy Crap!", two questions. One, how in the hell would you fire that thing short of something on wheels, and how well would those slugs hold together at that speed. I've had issues with the 2 3/4" slugs coming apart at short rang, and that case is significantly longer than that.;) :D

gd

gd357-- The slugs are hardened as they don't even lead the
rifling at that speed, so they stay together.
My gun is heavy and balanced good
and easy to shoot. Big thick recoil pad.
Here is picture of the Savage set up for
this case.Ed.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/redone.jpg

Did you try any other types of slugs ? I'm sure that Dixie will punch a hole through whatever it hits, but were there others you considered or tried ?

I hunt in a slug zone, rifles aren't allowed. I can't help but wonder what the conservation officer would consider this one ? I'd have some explaining to do.

You've got to get a copywrite on that name, that's a good one.

If your allowed rifled slug 12ga barrels like here in S Michigan
it is legal..Dixie sells loaded slugs all over, using the same
hard slugs.It is a 12 ga with brass case that is heavier than
regular brass cases,like you can get from Magtech, in a heavy barreled gun.We got barnes 3/4 oz sabot up to 3900 fps,
and all sabots in 12ga are legal in most places.12ga
chambers ran the range from 2.4 in to 3.5 inches, and now
there is a little longer one.The Dixie slug upset and turned
into flat lump in about 4 ft of hardwood slabs,but a
banded Bridger solid bullet of 750 gr went through the whole
6 ft of bundle thickness.Rob on AR one of the developers
of this, plans on using Bridgers on cape buffalo.Ed.

Something tells me that the DNR would quickly have a bill before the legislature requiring "slug" guns to use paper or plastic hulls. You can buy a shotgun type shell in .22 lr, but something tells me that a .22 lr gun isn't a shotgun. On the flip side, they could also pass legislation limiting the muzzle velocity of the firearm.

With that said, that is one cool rifle/shotgun.

fabsroman-I sure they would if a huge bunch showed up
in the woods, in shotgun only deer hunting ares.
But that is no problem as you just run 2.75 or
3in regular slugs or sabot loads which fit also.
And none of guys doing this plan on deer hunting.
But plan on big game-grizzly-africa- and the big bore
shooting matches that is starting to take off.As
well as for our own fun of just being able to
accomplish it....like 300 game in boardball.Ed.

Good point, but I think there might be a market for a gun like this until too many are sold. Imagine the selling power of it. The accuracy and range on slug guns has improved significantly over the past decade, so I wouldn't put it past someone trying to manufacturer and sell something like this.

How accurate is that gun? I would assume that it would be awesome for dangerous game. What amount of energy are you delivering with that round?

fabsroman--Haven't done any shooting for groups, just
chrono work outside the back door into a backstop..
bad weather here.My top loads 11,900 ft lbs,
and Rob's toploads in the stronger Borchardt,
15,000 ft lbs.Best moderate load in mine is 730 gr at 2400
for 9300 ft lbs.Here is picture of Rob's nice Borchardt.Ed



http://www.hunt101.com/img/349129.JPG

Sounds like you guys are having fun, more power to you.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

OH MY LORD !!! :) :D :cool: ;) :eek:

That being said, I'll additionally say this..................................KUELL !!!!!!!!!! YO DUDES, THAT'S KNARLY TO DA MAX !!!!!!!!! Be a heck of a GRIZ GUN !!!!!:) :eek:
IT'S TRULY AN INSIDEOUTTER !!!! :p
HNTER

Wow...hurts my shoulder just looking at it. What does the recoil on that feel like?

tko--It is about likeshooting a 10
lb 458 Lott rifle.Being heavy and balanced
it won't hurt as long as you hold
it tight.Ed

That's just plain WOW!

Duffy--Wow is the word. Very good case setup.
Here is picture of the case we fired 36 times,
sectioned to show that there is no thinning of
the sides.Not even any to measure with calipers.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12s.jpg

Here is a comparison picture of two other big cases,
with our case in the middle. 1st is a 700NE,
2nd our 12GA Fh, 3rd my 700HE.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/comp.jpg

What is the ballistic difference between the three cases because they look almost alike with the exception of the bases and a little length here and there.

fabsroman--their relative power is more the function of
the gun used. Most 700NEs are in break actions and are loaded
down, 1000gr at 2100 fps.Our 12GA FH would be loaded to about same energy levels in break action also, but in Rob's gun that takes
high pressures( he has gotten 750 gr up to 3000 already),
loaded up to match my 700HE, which is designed
for bolt actions to handle 1000gr at 3000fps.Ed

I took one of my flat nose
Bridger 750 gr solid banded hollowbase bullet
and shortened the nose. Actually made a slightly rounded
nose solid of 500 gr. With hollowbase it was still
a decent length, at one inch.I got it over
2800 fps, at my moderate pressures.Just a little
experimenting. Everyone got designs and wants
their ideas for slugs tested, so we do it.Ed.

you guy must be cool
 

some people call me MR recoil for braking single barrel shotties with 3in magnums .a 585 nyati came in my gun shop today and the guys want me to shoot it well you guys just blew that right out of the water i'll be down the shop tomozza with the far out news you guys rock.

Nice project Hubel, glad I happen to run across this thread. And I have to agree, patent that name !! Keep us up on how the accuracy is running when you do the testing, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard
slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water.
Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint.
First pic is pail with crimped on top.
Pail full and has filler spout capped.
Second pic,impact with water atomising,
and pail blowing apart.In the next small
fraction of a second is third after impact
with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure
down, has bent top of steel frame shelf.
Same blast put jug pieces all over.
Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind
you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Before.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Impact.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Holy.jpg

I picked up a 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.
With 24 in shorty barrel.
Added weight and thumbhole stock.
Gun weighted to 15 lbs so
far. I got 600gr hard slug to
1650-1700 so far, and shoots easy.
Got 1 1/2 inch thick pad.Working up different
loads.Should get over 2000.
Cases eject easy,no resizing needed
on bottom half of case,action opens easy,
no evidence of binding.Started case 3.2 inch,
settled on case length of 3.15-- Chamber being
full size max 12ga size expands top half of case
more than my minimum chamber in Savage does,
so little more effort needed to size.Our case, though many times stronger than regular
12ga cases is thinner at mouth, so that is
why I used tight chamber on Savage.Still
can't get used to mickey mouse short barrel.
Anyone know of a genius who could
make long alloy barrel with pivot mounted?
Cases can be 3 inches on up to
our length, and work.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef.jpg

When can I get my hands on one of them :D That's absolutely insane and awesome. How big of a powder charge? A 7mag shooting about 60, I'm gonna guess...230? w/ 600gr hard slug? crazy....

We got 600 gr slug to 2000 fps in NEF.Used ball
powder load. 230 gr. Case length of maximum 3.07 works.
Can use our case shorter, but load developement harder.
Anyone using our style case should also put in adapter
for shotgun primer. Save a lot of work
beefing up hammer speed and strength.Ed

Being some guns need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/209.jpg

I am interested in how you make all this stuff. I am assuming that these barrels you are using are not the standard barrels that come with the guns. For instance, can I go out and buy a 12 ga. NEF slug gun, grab a couple of these monster rounds from you and fire away? Somehow, I doubt it. The result would probably be a blown up gun and possibly a dead me.

How do you make the cartridges?

How much would something like that cost, if you were to make it to sell?

Duffy - First off, I'm not licensed to make stuff to sell.
Just do my own.You can set up with Savage, heavy barrel and
stock. Cases etc- for about a grand. Use NEF as is for milder
loads and our cases cut back to fit chamber.Gun and
cases $350, In both instances dies extra.

Fabsroman-I use NEF with barrel and chamber as it comes
from factory.Loads are milder than in Savage and cases
are shortened.All we are doing in NEF is a stronger brass case
allowing over a third more velocity, thus over 2/3
more energy.Here is picture of 3 cases with slugs and an
original bmg case with rim turned down and threaded for
the 12ga rim sections shown in pic.In a while I will
have rims, precision made like those in picture
for fellows to put on their cases, by doing their own
machining.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sht.jpg

Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with
320gr WC-855H special ball.730 gr slug.
Same slug,
300gr of RL-25 got 2400. 300 gr of RL-22
got 2800. 280 gr of W-760 ball got 2900.
Will hold more 760, but pressures around 40k on last
two loads mentioned.Savage extracts easy,
bellers like a tank gun.Ed

We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact
me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to
make dies and start.Got commitment for 400
already.Let me know if interested.Ed.

We got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in,
but this was easier about 5 seconds,
after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
of .500 slug.Ed

WE are getting a replica of big 1887 12ga levergun to
test cases in. Should be interesting fun.Gun is here and
here is picture.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/1887.jpg

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and RE-7, they look good.
Have got loadswith 2 wads and slug in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

pretty cool...

don't bring it to california, though...i'm sure our paranoid "legislators" would want to outlaw it...

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder,
like we had to do with RE-7 and RE-15
for good reliable ignition.We did 4759 in
plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp without a to high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

http://www.zoli.it/america/images_z/z_espedition2.jpg