91 yr old war criminal arrested
 

I don't know how I feel about this news item. Seems back in WWII there was a young soldier that happened to be born in the wrong Country. They put him to work as a guard at (sad) jewish camp. I am sure he could of just as well been made a guard at some military base or sent to the trenches..But is was his job....now the years have passed and he had good job in an Auto plant. Retired, etc..but someone found out what he had to do during the war. They arrested this 91 yr old man for war crimes. I don't know how I feel about that. Sure it is sad what they did back then but come on, 91? Give him 5 years prison. Life to me.. We on the other hand have criminals in our Gov now, wall st etc..some of these might not have pulled the triggers but did in fact cause a few to do so when they lost everything..jobs, money, homes, family..and now they have their millions and are still free..I am sure this 91 yr old has had time to think of what they were doing and has talked to God about it... I just dont think at his age, arrest isn't the cure. What do you all think?

Gonna raise a rant, but I do not see that a lockup at 91 will serve any useful point. Guy has lived with this all his life.
Dan

It depends
 

I wonder when the Soviets will put their soldiers on trial for the war crimes they committed in Eastern Europe during and after WWII. Looks like the victors write the history and the rules. There are a lot of war criminals on the winning side that will never be tried.

The 91 year old former camp guard was at the bottom of the food chain. He did what he was told or he would have been in the camp he was guarding. Take care...
Joe

Some just will not let history be consigned to the history books. They insist on reliving it. The Germans have become hyper-sensitive over the Nazi issue. I deplore the depredations of that regime too, but this guy was a very small cog in that machine. One of Germany's post-war leaders, Kurt Waldheim, was a Nazi - other than being 'persona non-grata' regarding coming to the US, he got along well......

Sorry, but I disagree with most of the posts here.

This story originally broke years ago, as the man in question (Demanjuk (sp?)) lived in the town right next to me ....literally. He is not accused of 'just being a guard'....he is accused of crimes against humanity, including torture and MURDER!!! Lasts time I heard, there was no statute of limitations on murder.
...and, if it was YOUR family members who were murdered, wouldn't you want justice for their killer(s)? Would you let them get away with it, just because they were 'old', or 'just in the wrong place at the wrong time'? I don't buy into the idea that they "had to do it, or else they would face the same treatment"....there were plenty of guards in camps that weren't sadists and murders. Just because this individual managed to hide it so well for all these years doesn't mean he should get a free pass.

Small cog in the machine? Maybe so, but that 'small cog' kept all the big cogs moving....

It's unfortunate that the U.S. must share the blame in some of this.....look into Japan's unit 731 in Manchuria and see the atrocities that they committed in the name of 'scientific research' (if you can stomach it....I work in an O.R. and after seeing/reading some of the things these animals did, I thought I was going to barf.....I had to quit reading half way through). Not only did they commit their atrocities on (primarily) Chinese citizens, but American POWs as well....and our country gave them a 'free pass' in order to get a look at the 'data' because of the cold war. Many of these sadists (er....excuse me, researchers) went on to become prominent politicians, presidents of Universities, heads of industry, ect.....and NONE of them EVER admitted to their crimes. And Japan, as a nation, has never acknowledged the fact that Unit 731 ever existed.
Should we just give them a free pass? After all, they are all old as well.....

Oh, and by the way: Unit 731 also experimented with "balloon bombs" to try and spread biological and chemical weapons over the United States. Little know fact: about 200 of these bombs reached the U.S., and one killed 7 people, including a woman who was 8 months pregnant.
....but let's just give them a free pass; after all, the war was over 60 years ago, and these were just civilians that they made war on....:mad:

I've seen other posts on here with re: to crime, criminals 'getting away with murder' because of legal issues filed by the ACLU, ect. You guys get pretty pissed off when you feel that justice is stymied. Yet here you are, doing the same thing because the guy is "old" and "the war was a long time ago".

The smell of hypocrisy is rather rank today....................:(

2 thumbs up to Mr 16. I have to agree with him.. murder is murder. If they were doing these things because they wanted to... then Adobe wall 'em. We should do the same to some of our politicians that do thing to us instead of for us

skeeter,

There was a program on TV last week about this individual. Several people stated the WWII ID card on this guy was a Soviet forgery. It was stated this guy was a Cold War victim of Soviet disinformation eagerly pursued by the U.S.

If the program comes to a station near you, view it and draw your own conclusions.

Adam

A forgery?? You mean like Nobama's Birth Certicate?? LOL!!

I've seen that program..Why would the Ruskies make him a fake ID card. Never explained that one fully..

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. Ever stop to think that we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan and killed thousands of civilians? That sounds like a war crime to me. How about the fire bombing of Dresden? That one sounds like an atrocity to me too. People will argue that it was done to completely demoralize the Germans, but IMO the war was already over and it wasn't needed.

Didn't we round up Japanese civilians and put them behind fences. Granted, nothing like the German camps or the way the Japanese treated POWs.

Then, you have to keep in mind that the history of wars is usually written by the victors.

Got into it on another chatboard with a Canadian that felt Canada did more in WWII than the US. I guess that is how a Canadian would view it through Canadian eyes.

Finally, I do think the guy was a small cog in a really big machine. If a soldier is given an order to kill civilians, or even torture them, what is that soldier to do. Just look at the US and waterboarding. Let's not even get into the crap that happens at Guantanomo. Not that I completely disagree with it, but just because we might have to court martial a lot more Americans and send the President to prison too.

We happen to be the "good guys" in WWII because we won.

Fabs you happen to be right about one or two things in all that stuff you posted.. But think of this.. Yep..the victors in a war write the history..or it used to be that way. It is no longer. We dropped bombs in Japan. We killed civilians. Didn't we kill civlilians with the normal bombs? Didn't the Japanese kill civilians? War my friend is not won by the "good guys". It is won by the nastiest SOBS. Seriously How many civilians and military men would have died had we invaded Japan. I submit it would have been more..much more..maybe as many as a million as the Japanese were ready to defend the homeland to the death...men women and children. We could have bombed Tokyo..cut the head off the snake but we didn't do that. It would have killed hundreds of thousands more..and I think you know it. We(meaning the US) did not make the decision to bomb Dresden..which was filled to overflowing with refugees. The Brits wanted that to be done and they got their way. The war was almost over...but many many more people would have died had we done less. Look at the Russians. We talk of the killing of 6 millions civilians in the death camps in Europe(contrary to popular belief they were not all Jews). The Russians killed 20 millions. BUT think of the Rape of Nanking..the Bataan Death march and many other atrocities at the hands of the japanese...especially in China. In Europe the Geneva Convention supposedly reigned...but not with the Japanese. They were not signatories. Now as to waterboarding..it seems it got Bin Hiding. I'm sorry the only way to win a war is to be meaner than the other guy. If that offends your sensibilities..so be it. I am not sorry for that. I'm just glad that you and I have the right to say what we think. That right was given to you and me by ...yep..the meanest SOBS on the block. For that I am happy and will not apologize...and I am sad to think that you will.

Hey, don't get mad at the messenger. We pretty much agree on most of this stuff. I just don't agree with throwing some 91 year old man in prison for the stuff he did 60+ years ago in a war, wherein he very well might have been carrying out military orders, and wherein the US doesn't have clean hands.

Somebody suggested that he could have just said no when he was ordered to do these things. Well then, the US could have just said NO to Britain as far as bombing Dresden is concerned.

Do I agree with dropping two atomic bombs on Japan? Yep, but that is because I am viewing it as an American. Heck, I think we should drop a couple in the Middle East and give them a lot more to worry about than their petty little squables. It will save a ton of American lives and a ton of American money. We have nukes to spare, so we really don't have to replace them.

Now, if you want to look at WWII and say that this German was a menace or that specific Japanese soldier was a menace, some 60+ years later, I have an issue with it. Almost have an issue with trying any of the soldiers except for the ones on high. A lot of the high brass from Japan and Germany, including the Emperor of Japan, should have been hanged. Yet, the Emperor was spared.

Last but not least, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!!!!!!! I never once said we should apologize for anything that we did. My examples were to show that the US isn't of clean hands either, and we shouldn't be going around 60+ years later and trying to sentence 90+ year old men to death for things they did during a filthy, disgusting war.

By the way, I also figured you would be the first one to respond. Seems like anything that looks like it might lean left draws you out right away. Kind of like the extreme lefties on the cycling board I visit. In there, anything that barely leans right draws them out. Like I say to them, you my friend, are the problem we have in this country and why the country is so divided. I bet there isn't one single point that you would concede to the left. Me, I sit somewhere in the middle and get crap on both boards. Luckily, I have a thick skin.

Fabs I put no words in your mouth. You said yourself we shouldn't have firebombed Dresden or the japs with the nukes. "The war was over?? In neither case was that true. The Germans funneled all those refugees into Dresden for a reason my friend and as I pointed out the japanese would have fought for every blade of grass. And of course the US had dirty hands. As I said the wars are won by the meanest SOBS...and the people with the most resources. We happened to have had both at the time... As far as your leaning left..you do a bit..I lean a bit right. But I don't jump on what you say unless you are clearly wrong. The emperor should have been hung with Tojo but then we would have had a real problem dealing with the japanese people. So not only were we the nasty guys..we were the real patsies after the war..rebuilding those countries with our wealth. Turns out it may have been the smart thing to do.. Many Americans were seriously opposed to doing it though. In some ways you just try to make everything so hard to do. Sometimes as they say..ya got to break a lot of eggs to make an omelet...and it seems like you just want to pass 'em over the pan and say that's good enough...without breaking them. You know..the world is still a very nasty place to play in....and there are some really nasty people in it. Like you I don't think we should be the world's policemen get out of Afghanistan..Libya and all the other sinkholes in the world...and make the US the strong nation that it once was. And not apologizing for being the strong wealthy nation we should be

Show me where in my post I said we should APOLOGIZE. Just show me that. There is a difference between saying that we should not have done something versus we should apologize for it. So, I stand by what I said.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. When you can show me where I said we should APOLOGIZE for dropping the bombs on Japan and where I said we should APOLOGIZE for Dresden, then I will APOLOGIZE to you. Until then, you can STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I also don't mind breaking eggs. Have no issue with any torture that led to Osama Bin Laden, etc. In hindsight we can sit here and Monday morning quarterback the entire freaking war. While it was going down, our only job was to kill more of them than they killed of us. I think Patton had a great quote regarding that. Kind of like sitting here 60+ years later and wanting to sentence this 90 year old man for war crimes that he may have committed. Jesus, who is still alive to testify against him and how can they actually pick him out of a lineup.

A couple of factual corrections. . .
" We talk of the killing of 6 millions civilians in the death camps in Europe(contrary to popular belief they were not all Jews)"
The actual total of people killed in the Holocaust is a little difficult to pin down. Most experts put the figure at around 13 million. Six million of them were Jews. The rest were political opponents of Hitler, people the 3rd Reich considered 'mentally defective', Communists, clergy, homosexuals, Gypsys, Russian POW's, etc.
Also, we did bomb Tokyo during the latter stages of WW2- quite extensively. Just not with nukes. The firebombing campaign burned out about 3/4 of Tokyo, and the total casualties from all the Tokyo bombing raids are thought to be higher than either of the A bombs dropped. Again, exact numbers are a bit difficult to come by.

Can you imagine what the loss of our servicmen would have been had we made an invasion of the Japense homeland? This alone justifies what we did for me.

saying what we should, or should not have done back in WW II is meaningless.

There was a bad war, our survival was at stake. Technology of the time did not allow for precision bombing and limited 'collateral damage'. Lots of people were killed.

Germany and Japan started the war, and their reasons were not benign or kindly. They were both brutal regimes, that cared as little for their own people as they did for the millions they murdered.

If some of that came back and bit them, so be it.

I have followed the John Demmanjuk issue for many years. I am on the side of those that say 'he did it', and should be punished. That he is old, just means he got away with his crimes for most of his life. He gets no sympathy from me.

The question would be whether the Japanese think it was a war crime to drop 2 atomic bombs on them, killing thousands of civilians in the process. It doesn't matter what you and I think was justified, even though I agree with you.

Personally, I think all this war crimes stuff is straight up BS. Seriously, we have rules pertaining to war when nations have nuclear missiles, machine guns, tanks, etc. It is against the rules of war to use hollow points, but if you shoot somebody with a tank round that is fine, or better yet run them over with a tank. Killing prisoners is also against the "rules", as is torture, etc. Well, if a country doesn't want to take prisoners, just issue an order to shoot them all during the "battle".

Ultimately, it just sucks to be on the losing side and it is nice to be on the winning side. You don't have to worry too much about who is going to be charged with war crimes when you are the victor.

Alright, so I went and read the initial paragraphs of Wiki for this guy. He has been tried in Israel, the US, and finally found guilty when he was tried in Germany just recently. The man is in a wheelchair and a nursing home. Does it really matter at this point? Maybe for politics sake. The man has been involved in criminal proceedings against him since the 80's. Freaking incredible. Then, he is found guilty of being an accessory to murder for 27,900 people because he was a guard at the camp and he is sentenced to 5 years in prison. They must be pretty lenient in Germany on murderers because an accessory to 27,900 murders in the US would get a lot stiffer sentence than 5 years.

I think this is a bunch of political BS at this point just to make the rest of you feel good about something.

Then again, probably none of us posting on here really know exactly what is going on because we weren't present at any of the trials. I would love to know how they found enough evidence in Germany to convict him. Guess I am going to have to read some more of the Wiki.

What a train wreck of evidence Wiki shows, and the final paragraph provided by Wiki:

The unique nature of the legal argument he was convicted under has been noted.[82] Christiaan F. Rüter, Professor of Law and expert on NS trials in Germany, who researched the subject at the University of Amsterdam for 40 years, expressed reservations against the commencement of proceedings stating that to him "it is a complete mystery, how anyone who knows the German jurisdiction up to now, would be able to assume that Demjanjuk could be sentenced based on the given evidence."[83][dead link] The trial has been criticized for its lack of evidence other than an interview summary conducted by the Soviet Union KGB of another prison guard who died sometime in the 1990s, and a Soviet-supplied ID card from the Trawniki camp that a 1985 report from the Cleveland office of the FBI concluded was "quite likely" a KGB forgery.

This thing has politics written all over it.

Fabsroman,

As a lawyer, you MUST give ALL credibility to KGB "Files." Unfortunately the ONLY witness died in KGB custody. WHAT else is new when one has the KGB as the SOLE SOURCE of "Evidence?"

I watched a movie recently where some people cut the fence and escaped from the USSR. Shots were fired, but all escaped .The two Border Guards chatted. One said, "Why would any Comrade want to escape this "Workers Paradise?"

Why would any lawyer accept KGB "Evidence" as VALID? Especially when the "Source" convenitely "Died?" after the Statement was provided to the KGB? We must get all EVIDENCE from the KGB, Nicht Wahr?

We all "KNOW" the KGB would NEVER FORGE any Document. Right? If we are relying on KGB "Evidence", then we are postured for the Brave New World, Nicht Wahr??????

Adam

Well guys, I am back, been gone for a couple of weeks, working at the farm, on "Vacation."

Jeez where to start: I know
"Alright, so I went and read the initial paragraphs of Wiki for this guy. He has been tried in Israel, the US, and finally found guilty when he was tried in Germany just recently. The man is in a wheelchair and a nursing home. Does it really matter at this point?"

No comment of ignorant statements like that.

Wiki is a publicly edited source. I regularly edit errors off of Wiki's pages. What a poor choice of information to quote.

Really guys, I suggest you read a few books:
The Theory and Practice of Hell
The Knights of Bushido
A Torch To the Enemy
The Night Hamburg Died
Mengele
Defeat In The East
Commandant of Auschwitz
The Divine Wind
Kamikaze

What you get from these books is a picture of why things happened and how they happened. You cannot take a single incident out of the context of the war and claim it is an example of anything. Why? Because the war was a 6 year or so series of actions and reactions required for the war itself to carry forward. However, certain aspects of the war were not war at all, they were covered by the war, similar to the set people in a movie. People talk about the Jews, but the Jews were just the tip of the iceberg. Read the statistics about the loss of people. The Russian loss is staggering, some 23 million estimated, mostly civilians. These were not lost in a cross fire during battle, they went into the hole or into ash, with the Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Most of you apparently rely on movies, TV programs, etc to form an opinion. I am of an age and have the interest, since very early childhood, to study books, interview participants and go to places where some of the events occurred. I belonged to the 101st Airborne Div during a time when about 30% of the Division was made up of WWII vets. I looked for them and talked to them while I was in uniform. It was the 101st that spearheaded our assault across Europe and they were first to find many of the 'Camps." You would do well, those of you who think old is reason to forgive, to talk to the people that were there yourself. I will guarantee one reaction; you will never forget the experience.

How bad was Japan, you should talk to members of the Airborne that jumped into the PI and liberated the JAP camps they were in many ways worse than the German camps. Or the Marines who took back the little islands after the surrender, where US Prisoners were herded into trenches and burned alive using gasoline poured on them, so they would not tell of their torture and killing. You would never forget that either. Let us not forget a small thing known as "The Rape of Nan king" where the Japs murdered 250,000 to a half million civilians AFTER the city surrendered. The oriental people in the Pacific lost millions of souls, not due to war, but occupation by a brutal animal they call the Japanese Army. Their atrocities are so profound one must make a list and under C include cannibalism, as documented events. Heard about it, no? Why not? Perhaps it is Sony, Nissan, etc. are still run by Japanese Army officers, never tried.

German concentration camp guards were not just a poor GI sent to do his duty. They could always transfer to combat units. Most camp guards stayed not because of what you suspect, self-preservation, nope, they were selected to start with for brutality. Their prisoners were animals and were going to die. The Germans found out early on that a regular GI could not stand the repeated killings, so with typical efficiency; they selected replacements that could and would kill again and again without EFFECT. That is what you are looking at, not a poor old man, but a mass murderer hand picked by a government as a killing machine, a killer of innocents.

Cabbage soup was served daily, why, look it up.
Ed

And some of those reasons are why I do not think we should forgive or forget. My uncle was one of those liberating guys in the Pacific. He very seldom spoke of the experiences..or of the powers that were telling them to NOT talk of them. The Japanese were in some ways worse than the Germans..much worse. Especially to our prisoners of war...Many of the Jap military thought of the people who surrendered to be of no use..A real man would not surrender...would fight to the death. So therefor whatever he did to a prisoner was alright. The prisoner was less than human anyway, afterall. And Ed is correct From what I have read and learned first hand..the guards in the European camps HAD to do this murder everyday...the average person could not endure such a thing unless somewhat deranged. It is surprising that we had very little retaliation by the American and Allied troops in The European theater. In the Pacific though..you should talk to the men that were there. They had very little regard for the people they were killing. Most, I think, just realized it was either kill the enemy or they would be killed. It was truly brutal. To many of the American troops it was incomprehensible

I have to agree with Mr. 16 as well. If that guy had been murdering our soldiers during the war, we'd want justice for the pain, torture and death of defenseless POWs. Somehow I suspect they investigated his past before they came knocking. Should there be a time limit on murder? War crimes? Probably opens a bigger can of worms so I say no.
gg