cat i guess if i think about what i have done over the past month -------that is really what i did - the only reason i chose the 165 gr is because that was what was being hunted with -- the rest of it is because it made the closest group and i used the powders i had -------but im still gonna get the 4350 and try it before i load up several boxes for the season 2008 - i guess i just plan too far ahead