45-70 question

[Critch]

I don't own a 45-70, but what is the hottest load that a person could safely shoot out of a modern rifle, such as a Ruger NO 1?

I've heard so many stories about this cartridge, and frankly, even though it's a heavy bullet, it's got to be losing a lot of energy downrange.

[jmarriott]

Check out the loads from buffalo bore.

[Mike Moss]

While I honor the 45-70 has a USA military cartridge I aways viewed it as high kick and low hit.

For normal hunting it would be a disadvantage for most of us. Someone could find a special use where it would work ok.

Besides an old trap door thats gone I had chances to pick up 45-70's and I am glad that I did not bother with the round. To each his own.

[PJgunner]

It depends on when that ruger #1 was made. Mine is from the 1970's and has a nice long throat and I can seat a 500 gr. bullet out far enough to get past 1800 FPS with a cast lead bullet. A serious load that hits hard at both ends. I shoot only my home cast bullets in the 45-70.
Check out a copy of Ken Waters Pet Loads. He shows some stiff loads for use in stronger guns. The only place where I disagre with him is in using those loads in a New model 1895 Marlin. One theykick like hell and two, the lever will snap open at the shot. Almost an automatic ejection systen and I wasn't even close to his loads yet.
Paul B.

[Rapier]

Critch,
Pay attention to Paul and the #1 issues, he is a #1 kinda guy. I am exactly like Paul when it comes to the Marlin, I own two, it just aint that strong and popping a lever is getting danger close for no legitimate reason.

I have a few #1s but none in the big bore range. On the other hand, I do own two Siamese Mauser based 45-70 guns. They are in my way of thinking, superior to just about every other 45-70 chambered configuration when it comes to pressure. The Siamese is a late 98 Mauser built by Arisaka for the Siamese government, chambered for a rimmed cartridge. I also own some real shoulder beaters, like a 458 Lott and a 20-inch carbine in 338 WM.

Probably the best thing to talk about in the 45-70 in the Mauser configuration is the fact that you can not get enough powder in it to flatten the primer until you go to a pistol powder like H-4227. Yeh, well, after several hundred test rounds, I got tired of firing a round and it dropping out of the chamber with a round primer so I loaded up a 525gr RCBS cast until I got a flat primer so I satisfied myself that it could be done.

Mauser Only:

With a 300gr Rem HP you can get 2,600 to 2,700 using R-7 at about 1 inch at 100
With a 300 Rem HP you can get 2,500 fps using 2015BR at .75 inch at 100

Here in the SE I have not seen a need for the bigger bullets in the 45-70. A 300 at 2,600 to 2,700 fps is about all a 150-pound whitetail needs for a clean kill.

The Mauser is my illusion gun... causes a deer to just disappear.
Best,
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

More to the point there is really no reason to go that high in a 45-70. Despite the high kick low hit rep of the 45-70 it has been used to take many elk, buffalo, and other large game safely and cleanly. IMHO the 45-70 with a 405grain lead and a a case full of black powder is all you will ever need to take game on the American continent. That is unless you want to sit in nebraska and shoot them in alaska. I have a H&R handrifle in 45-70 and it is VERY strong. If anything the Ruger#1 is stronger. Ramping up a BP cartridge that was already a very effective large meat killer is pointless. If you need more than what it already gives than maybe you should be looking at a 50 BMG, or you should stop hunting armored personnel carriers.

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

Aw now GOB, there you go with that 6 letter word that goes with that four letter word, reason and need. Buying, shooting or reloading for guns requires no reason or need.

Besides, there was a good reason, the 45-70 testing and the 458 Lott shooting required a new piece of equipment, a lead sled.
Best,
Ed

[popplecop]

I've been shooting a No. 45-70 for 21 years. I use 350 gr. Hornady and 3031 powder. Ihave taken a number of whitetails with it all one shot kills and don't have to trail them very far. It is scoped with an old Redfield 1.5-5 scope, very accurate rifle. I also have 3 other 45-70s. My so called brush gun is a Bikaal 45-70 SxS, easy to carry and lighter than my No. 1.

[GoodOlBoy]

lol now Rapier you surely have a point there. testing, thumping, and hotroding rounds CAN be fun, just sometimes unnecessary. Reminds me of the old boy who ramped a 32 S&W up to compete with a factory 357. My question then and now is why not just buy a 357?

popplecop a 350grain hornady bullet would deffinantly be a deer killin dude from a 45-70. I imagine it would teach feral hogs a few manners as well, though I still prefere solids for them.

GoodOlBoy

[Larryjk]

Critch, The Ruger No. 1 is probably the strongest action you can find. I know a lot of folks will be upset, but I would rather have a Ruger No. 1 than any bolt action for strength. If you can take a Ruger No. 1 and make it into a .458 Lott or any of the other large African cartridges, there isn't much to worry about. However, I am sure any enterprizing reloader can exceed the limits of even the Ruger No. 1.

[Rapier]

Larry,
Most will tell you that it is just easier to bugger up the process of a falling block than a bolt gun. I have built quite a few of both and the bolt will go past the falling block when it comes to hanging up after a stout load. But frankly, I am past either one becoming a problem. A sticky drop or sticky bolt handle is not in my cards..... Oh, probably the nastiest falling block ever built was the 8mm Panzerbüchse built by the Germans. The round was based on a 20mm case necked down to 8mm. A bad, bad boy indeed.

Hey GOB, most of us nuts do stuff cause we can or it's there or a combination of the two.

I sure was looking for the penetration test data I found on the neta couple of years back. But alas, the page is gone. I found the listing but nada when you click on it. The old 45-70 was first or second as I recall. The hard cast 400 or 500 is just so tough and does not do anything but plow.
Best,
Ed

[skeet]

I really don't see where the 45-70 is so bad. I keep one in the truck for hunting in the black timber for elk and it will also work ok on ol grizz. I do use the 405 gr bullet in about the middle of the road loads for my ol Marlin 1895. Shoots good and not that much recoil. I must say that the 300 and 350 gr bullets do have a bit less recoil.

[Larryjk]

Rapier, I am only referencing one falling block action on this thread, the Ruger No. 1. I have several others, but they come nowhere near the strength of a No. 1. The Ruger No. 1 is "No. 1" when it comes to strength because of the wall thickness and the thickness of the steel back of the falliing block. That is what puts it ahead of the Winchester High Wall and the Sharps. The sides on those are just about the same but they don't have quite the support back of the block that the No. 1 has. Only rifles that the block slides almost straight down have the strength for the really high pressure loads.
Martinis, Ballards, Rolling Blocks etc don't have that. I have seen some very strong bolt actions and the "prettyest" ones are not the strongest. The old Arisaka is very strong as is the Enfield 17 and 14. The Mausers, Springfields come after them. If you are going to shoot overloads on a regular basis, shoot the Remington 700. I have seen them survive some terrible loads. My humble opinion based on people that worked in armories during WWII and subsequent trials.

[oger]

My load book says. 500 gr RN. 2.720 OL. 53.0 gr H335 CCI 250 in an 1885 Browning as shooting well but the recoil was so bad I quit using the load.
In the very heavy Siamese Mauser. Same bullet, same OL. 55 gr H4895 CCI 250. consistent 1900+ FPS. 3 shots under an inch at 100 yards but even in that club the recoil wasn't fun.

[Rapier]

Oger,
The 500 gr bullets in the 45-70 are in my opinion, like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, it feels good when you stop. I bought a Lead Sled specifically to take care of the 45-70 in my two Siamese Mausers and the 458 Lott in the MRC while testing loads. But I did learn a lesson in the process, actually relearned, anything over 400 grains and over 1,700 fps is not pleasant in any of my guns. The sled makes it OK but the non sled shooting tends to leave my fingers tingling, from the irritation to pinched nerves between 3-4 at shoulder / spine juncture.

I have the 525 gr RCBS mould and pushing that lovely hard cast over 1,700 results in a memorable event for all of my guns. The 525’s penetration is about one brick house, but it kills at both ends in the process. So that is an item “I have” and I pretty much shoot 300gr bullets normally, as our critters in the SE do not require triple body penetration. Even a big hog is no match for a 45-70's little 300gr and bang flop is the order of the day.
Ed