A 9mm as a CCW piece?

[Adam Helmer]

The guys at the local gun club and gun shop cannot accept the 9x19MM as a serious CCW arm. From 1989 until 1996 I carried a Glock M19 as a federal agent. I had 15 rounds in the mag, so the desired "One Shot Stop" may have needed Two or Three Rounds, But I was not buying the ammo, so who cares?

I still carry my Glock M19, a P-38 and a P-08 Luger alternately as a CCW arm along with a M1911A1 and a M65 .357 S&W as CCW pieces.

Even today, we hear "War Stories" out of Iraq about the 9mm shortcomings because the Military uses Ball ammo. There are some very good 9mm rounds available to CCW folks today. I load my 9mms RIGHT.

Who likes the 9mm for CCW?

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I have two 9mm carry pieces: a S&W M39 and a CZ75B. Both function flawlessly with HP ammo, and my carry ammo of choice these days is Speer GDHP in 124 grain persuasion.

....and technically, all my carry guns (semi autos) are "9mm" (in diameter, anyway)....I also carry a .38 Super & a .380 ACP from time to time.

I have confidence in my ability to hit what I"m shooting at with my 9mms.....I have tried the .45 and didn't find it all that accurate or pleasant to shoot (to be fair, it most likely was the gun....a rental from a local gun shop).

I have also worked in E.R.s, ICUs and O.R.s, and can tell you that I have seen enough people hit with 'minimal' calibers that weren't going anywhere but a slab, and a few hit with larger calibers that made it.

Bullet placement & a good HP (of which there are now many) are key......

[buckhunter]

I do use a 9mm and for the most part feel OK with it. I would never carry one with ball ammo. For the most part it will kill but your liable to get shot while waiting for the assulant to expire.

If you carry with a good hollow point bullet you will be fine. Sure the 40 and the faithful 45 are better and if given the choice that would be mine but the 9mm with decent 124 or 115 gr hollow point bullet will save your butt.

[Adam Helmer]

buckhunter,

YES, and shoot two or three times at the Bad Guy. With a high capacity magazine, why would anyone shoot ONLY Once? I like the Winchester 115 grain Silvertips.

We had a training film, years ago, I showed at semi-annual firearms qualification. There were several scenarios where cops got whacked BECAUSE they shot a BG ONCE and expected to see the Hollywood version of a shootout.

I told my classes to "Shoot until the BG falls away from the front sight." It works!

Adam

[Rapier]

I am not a big 9mm Para fan but I know it for what it is and more importantly I know it for what it can be, in a full support chambered barrel and custom gun. What kind of carry gun a 9mm is has almost everything to do with the ammo.

I used a 9x19mm major, race gun, in IPSC for a few years, until the 9x19mm major factor was no longer allowed by IPSC regs. Never had a round blow, but a 9mm major factor gun is a very, very bad hombre. It is sorta like a 15 or 20 round 357 mag and it is no body's idea of "not sufficient."

So, you go from ridiculous to ridiculous with the 9mm, somewhere between is a decent round. If you carry a 9 just make darned sure you ammo is up to the task intended.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

I don't like the 9mm any more than I do the 38 for a ccw piece, I just don't. That being said it is alot better than a 380, or a big fat nothing.

My main problem with the 9mm stems from the fact that you can gently bump to the 40 S&W or the 357 sig and see a good deal more stopping power, or you can go all the way and go with a 45 and never have to worry about it again.

If I am buying a new ccw gun the 9mm aint it. If I am trying to use what I have on hand and its the choice bewteen an accurate and reliable 9mm, and any other caliber that isnt accurate or reliable then I am packing the 9mm.

me I tend to pack a 38 +P snub for light carry, and a 1911A1 milspec 45 acp for heavy carry.

GoodOlBoy

[buckhunter]

GOB

Not to start a turd flinging contest but look at the +38 and the 9mm with decent ammo.Ain't much difference. And yes I do agree the 45 is king.

If the 9 is good enought for the British SAS then its good enough for me. Just keep firing.

[GoodOlBoy]

no turd here buck, that was actually my point. I am carrying essentially the snubnose revolver version of the 9mm. I carry it because it is dead nuts accurate, and it dissapears in a pants pocket in the summer. In the winter when I arguably have more places to hide one I carry my 1911a1.

And the only reason the 9 is good enough for the british SAS is because the get pretty well unlimited ammo so they can blast all 15 rounds into somebody then reload four times before they even start to sweat. If all you are talking about is one bad guy that is all great and good, but if you are talking about multiple bad guys I want something that will drop them on the first shot then stay till the end of the picknic. I don't want to stand around plugging four holes into one before I go on to the next. Bad guys seem to be AWFULLY impatient about that sorta thing and never seem to want to wait on you. I am even now trying to find a place to get my blackhawk 45lc cut down to about a sheriffs model length, have the rear sights taken off and cut to a notch, then have a birdshead grip put on so I can carry it instead of the 38 in the summer. 6 shots of 45 colt is more than enough until you get to 7 bad guys, at which point you make your way to the car, pull out your 30-30 winchester and commence.

The only purpose in my 38 +p snub is to get me to where I have a bigger gun stashed.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

While I do appreciate these discussions, I think most of us would have to agree that this is mostly an exercise in 'mental masterbation'. Darn few of us have ever been in a gunfight, let alone multiple gunfights which would qualify us as 'experts'. Let's face it.....most of us get our information from the internet & gun magazines, and let's just say that this is less than nonbiased writing. There is also a lot of hogwash out there.....for example, the idea that the 9mm was developed because it would only 'wound' people, requiring more men being tied up taking care of casualties. What a load of crap! If I'm being shot at, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stop shooting back to take care of a wounded comrade! And more importantly, wounded soldiers can and WILL shoot back!!!!!
I am also not impressed with the drivel that came out in the 80's regarding the myth of the "one shot stop"......if the .45 is so great, then why was the .357 magnum loaded with 125 grn JHPs the one with the best 'record' of one shot stops? And I do believe that most criminals will turn tail and run at the sight of a gun being pointed at them, not 'stand and fight'.....by the very nature of being criminals, they are cowards as well. They produce a gun to terrorize people; I am producing one to KILL THEM!! They don't practice on the range......I do. They don't do testing in various media to find what works for them......I do.

Bottom line is that I have confidence in my abilities, my firearm, and my ammo.......and I think that has more credence in a gunfight than the caliber I'm carrying.

There may have been some merit to the argument that the 45 was better than the 9mm when the two were compared years ago on a FMJ to FMJ basis, but we have come on such a long road since that time..................

If you don't like the 9, then fine......but I'm willing to bet that I will do just as well with my 9 as you will with your 40, 45, .38, bazooka, or whatever when the chips are down.

[GoodOlBoy]

You can believe or not believe in the 'one shot stop' if you want to, but that is the entire reason why most Texas peace officers have abandoned the 9mm altogether. It isn't a myth it's a fact. The reason the 357 magnum with 125 grain hps has such a good record is because #1 it works. It has ALOT more knockdown and stopping power than a 9mm or 38 special. One thing interesting is a fully bloomed 357 mag hp is very close to .450 in diameter. . . . well isnt that intersting thats a 45. . . . The reason 45s dont always have a good reputation is that many people load them with cheap ball ammo that will punch through, but down't have the energy transfer of a good hp. It just doesn't. And the "80's" myth started during the jungle island wars when 38's wouldn't stop the doped up tribesmen in the philippines from killing a soldier after he plugged him five or six times, but amazingly 45s did. . . I would take a 44 over the 9mm any day as well (mag or special).

As for comparing fmj to fmj and hp to hp. The 40 S&W the 357 sig, and the 45 acp all beat the 9mm in that straight comparrison. The 9mm beats the 380. The 380 beats the 25 auto. In revolvers the 357 mag beats the 38 special (even the +p) The 44 mag and the 45 longcolt beat the 357 mag, and the 454 casull or 50 alaskan beats the 44 mag and 45 colt. This is with factory loads naturally. I have 45 colt hunting loads that beat the bejeebers out of any factory 44 mag or 454 casull out there. I don't use them for self defense unless I have no choice in the matter because they are handloads and that opens a whole nother leagal can of worms.

By the way I don't know of anybody who carries fmj in there ccw gun. Even in 9mm or 45 auto its a bad idea because you can get such a pass through that you can damage other people and property in a gunfight. Most of us carry hps. I am sure there are exceptions.

Talk about an argument not havint merit and being "mental masterbation". You get the idea that none of us have been in gunfights. Take a look at the number of Law Enforcement and Exmilitary on this sight and you will find out just how wrong you are. I am not going to carry an inferior round if I have a superior one no matter how much somebody else hails it as the great blue wonder. Period.

You get a chip on your shoulder about your 9 its not my problem. I don't have a chip on my shoulder about my 38 (which matches your 9 ballistics and I only carry it because it is a double action snubbie) or my 45s. You don't believe in one shot drops I hope for your sake you never run into a gunfight with somebody who does.

Also if you read you will see where I already admitted I would rather have a accurate 9 that an inferior round to it or nothing at all, but then again people who just want to fly off the handle rarely do read the whole message.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

By the way one other thing I should mention. This was started as a ccw thread and why people are against 9mm. I said I don't personally like it, I am not against it. If I KNEW I was going to a gunfight I am not carrying a pistol I am carrying a rifle. It was asked why people don't consider it a "Serious" ccw piece. I never said I didn't consider is serious. In point of fact I don't want to be shot at by a 22 (And yes have had that happen too) much less a 9mm, 45, 500 S&W, or 20mm belt fed machine gun.

GoodOlBoy

[Mr. 16 gauge]

You get a chip on your shoulder about your 9 its not my problem.

No chip on my shoulder, GOB.....sorry if my post came off that way.

Texas LEOs may carry 45s, but most of the nation doesn't....they carry 9s or 40s.

If I was an LEO, and had my choice, I would carry a 4" .357 mag revolver with adj. sights. I remember back in the late 80's reading articles in Time and other 'news' magazines how LEOs were supposedly 'outgunned' because the bad guys had high capacity handguns and the LEOs 'only' had 6 shot revolvers.
Now most LE agencies have gone to automatics since then, and a host of problems have come with it: accidental shootings, charges of too much deadly force (), bullet pass throughs, ect, ect, ect. There is one video on youtube where a female officer has an accidental discharge while her partner is cuffing a suspect on the ground.
We also have all seen the bank robbery shoot out in LA a few years back when the bad guys had body armor & full auto AKs......again, the cry went up (esp. from the antigun crowd) that the police were undergunned because they felt the need to go to gun shops and get AR15s. I guess I'm a little confused, because I've been told that LAPD carries rifled slugs for their shotguns, so why didn't they load up with slugs and try and take out the bgs with a head shot?

I guess the point I'm trying to make (and trying to make in my original post) is that too much emphasis is being focused on equipment (caliber, ammo, ect) and not enough on 'intangibles' such as mind set.

.....and I've heard the stories about the moros in the Phillipines as well. If the pistols didn't stop the MOros, then why did the Krag rifles do the job? Why didn't they break out a host of 1873 Springfields in .45-70? That would have done the job a lot better (if bigger is better). Fact of the matter is: NOBODY reading these posts was there, so nobody can say for sure why the .38s didn't work, but the 45s did. Could it have been another reason (bullet design, for example)? The fact is that people who are using the Moro example are using anecdotal evidence to prove their point. It's like saying that if I take a frog and tell him to jump, and he jumps, and I then take said frog and cut off his legs and tell him to jump, and he doesn't, then I conclude that by cutting off a frogs legs, it makes him deaf. If I can't go back and retest the situation, you can't prove me wrong (or right).
As far as the .357 mag expanding to .45 cal.....My .38 specials in my 2" Detective special expand to 60-62 caliber.....does this make my lowly .38 special 30-33% 'better' than your .45? Of course it doesn't......but based on the data alone (anecdotal), you would have to say so.

Anyway, I didn't mean to start a pissing contest here, so I will sign off on this thread (at least for the time being).......enjoy your .45!

[GoodOlBoy]

Don't get me wrong I dont want you to sign off og the thread, and I appologize that I misenturpreted your post. Most Texas Leo's right now (except the rangers who DO carry 45s) are carrying 40s or 357 sigs. The 357 sig is winning by leaps and bounds. Understand that most departments will not allow revolvers, otherwise I am with you I would carry a good double action, probably a gp100 357 mag.

Mind set is incredibly important, but since the question was posted by Adam who I don't know personally but I am convince has an incredibly good grasp on mind set and tactics I ignored the mind set side entirely. Once skill and mind set has been defined, fixed an put aside all that is left is equipment.

That being said I don't know the entire reason behind why rifles where not pulled out in the case of the moros (glad you knew the reference). Again if I KNOW I am headed to a gunfight a rifle will be my primary.

The other issue is anecdotal evidence. When you get down to it what else is there? No machine no matter what anybody says will respond like a live human being shot. It just doesn't You gather data, you make a guess, you go from there. In the end the "field test" is in the field when you shoot a bad guy and see whether or not he takes the gun away and beats you to death with it or dies quickly in which case you go home to your family.

My ultimately prefered ccw gun is a Marlin 336 in 30-30 winchester. Unfortunantly it doesn't fit in my pocket like my 38 does.

GoodOlBoy

[8X56MS]

Lets see now, I have two BHP in 9MM, a nice little CZ 75D PCR, a couple of different Berettas and a S&W J frame in 9MM I am very comfortable carrying any of them.

[skeet]

Been around a few in my time..involved and after the fact. In almost all the after the fact ones..there were quite a few rounds expended and very little bullet wound damage. Gunfights are usually close encounters where everybody wants to be a long way from each other..therefore there is a lot of missing. One comes to mind right off the bat. 31 rounds fired by the 2 two gun toters. Range was Bar Box pool table range..say 8-9 ft. Only person hit was a guy trying to get away from the flying lead and got hit in the right hand goin around a corner.. Po-Lice never did catch the 2 shooters who took it on the lam..surprisingly in the same direction at the same time. Moral of the story is you are trying to find a place to hide from the flying lead even while you are shooting it. Not conducive to good accuracy btw. To be very honest carrying a gun is an act that tends to make us feel better..while at the same time we hope we never have to use it. Most CCW encounters are ended when the CCW holder pulls the gun. Happened 2 times for me with no shots fired..one dropped his piece and took off. It was a real junker Lorcin anyway. Went into a dumpster.. Another dropped his knife so quick it wasn't funny..he accosted 8 of us after leaving the theater(Watched 42nd Street). Wanted money and jewelry. I didn't even pull the gun..just showed it and he was gone. The matrons in the vicinity were shocked..and happy I had the piece.. I just got out of town in a hurry. Talking to the law about carrying a gun(in Md anyway) is not a fun thing. Gunfights are scary things. Most people hit in altercations of that type are usually bystanders cause the shooters are shuckin and jivin looking for a place to hide. Me too. But if I have to carry something..even a 25 is better'n rocks or fists...or a knife. I'll still choose to carry something bigger than a 9 which is usually a 45. My preference. For the average Joe...which includes most of us..including lawmen..lack of fear is the only thing that keeps us standing up there letting people shoot at us...and there aren't many with that lack of the fear of death. Not me...and not y'all either.

As for the Moro's..check it out.. There was a real reason they were not stopped by small rounds. They were drugged, already in extreme pain(according to what I have read) and were very slight people. Rifles were very unwieldy at distances of mere feet too. Rifle rounds went straight on through especially rounds not well aimed. These encounters happened at mere feet too ya know! Oh and look at the 38 Colt round. Anemic is an understatement. Makes the 9mm look like a real winner

OOne last thing..we had a hijacking attempt of an aircraft one day..One of the police officers attempted to shoot the main gear of a 727 with Round Nose 38 Specials. Actually bounced off the tires..all 6 times. One round with a 357 did each tire in. True story..I was there.