A 9mm as a CCW piece?

[popplecop]

There are a number of things in the human body chemistry that effects how it reacts to different things. One thing that has been my observation is that at close range 2 center of mass and 1 head shot is probably going to be successful 99.4% of the time, just like Ivory soap. Am from the old school which we taught 1 center of mass and 1 head shot, not saying that 2 center of mass is better. Teaching methods like ammo developement have improved over the years.

[skeet]

Over the years in the fire dept I actually dealt with approx a dozen police involved (finished for lack of a better word)shootings. Surprizingly even though it was taught for lo these many years...I never saw a one shot or two shot center of mass/one head shot. not by a cop..not by a bad guy either. I kinda did see a couple in VietNam...but onea those guys was a really scary dude. I kinda wonder if he ever ...ah..assimilated back in the general population Another really scary thought..maybe he did...and we didn't notice

[GoodOlBoy]

Remeber too that police officers train just like most other people on paper that is not shooting back. When you get to train with simunitions or the like you get more of a feel for it, and despite the fact that it is paint pellets loaded over powder instead of lead you get a good idea of a portion of what it feels like to be in a firefight. Despite the "friendly" training nature of it your hands shake, weapons jam, and you see just how much EVERYBODY can miss when they are shaken up. One in the head, one in the chest, all works good if you can keep your brains together long enough to do it. Afterwards you can fall apart. Fall apart before or during and you are in trouble.

GoodOlBoy

[buckhunter]

Once while bow hunting well before 1st light about 10 coyotes lit it up with 100 yards from where I was. I got so nervous I couldn't even get an arrow in the string. I thought to myself, man your in deep dodo if they get close. Well they didn't and I suppose it was a good thing.

Remember as a kid how you felt before you got in a fight with someone then think out about a gun fight. I used to get pretty stressed when the NVA got close and believe me they did. Close enough I was afarid to soil my pants cause they would smell it.

I do not believe there is a man alive that would be cool and calm when the lead starts flying.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by GoodOlBoy

Remeber too that police officers train just like most other people on paper that is not shooting back. When you get to train with simunitions or the like you get more of a feel for it, and despite the fact that it is paint pellets loaded over powder instead of lead you get a good idea of a portion of what it feels like to be in a firefight. Despite the "friendly" training nature of it your hands shake, weapons jam, and you see just how much EVERYBODY can miss when they are shaken up. One in the head, one in the chest, all works good if you can keep your brains together long enough to do it. Afterwards you can fall apart. Fall apart before or during and you are in trouble.

GoodOlBoy

Kinda what I was trying to say GOB without maybe causing hard feelings. Seriously the only double taps and head shots I ever saw were in VN..and as I said those dudes were scary. Not many people even with all the training can keep their wits about 'em when them little lead things are flying around. Scared the snot outta me I can tell ya. I woulda been lookin for a place to hide but usually in an airplane...which wasn't too scary till you could hear the little lead thingies makin holes in your Big Aluminum thingie...and the only thing you could do was put distance tween you and the BGs. From all the shootings I have seen most of the hits by either side seemed to be by chance..till the training kicked in with some of the LEOs and don't take it wrong but in at least 2 observed fights the BGs side seemed to not be shootin back..Takes a lot off'n yer mind...but those scary dudes in VN...They were either crazy or trained to not fear...well... the fear of death

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh I ain't tryin to hurt no feelings. I don't mean it thataway. But it's danged easy for a man to get puffed up in his own mind about what it is he's a gonna do in a gunfight. After awhile he talks himself into believing all the movies, tv shows, and "combat" trainers. There's a old saying in prize fighting. "Everybody has a plan till he gets hit." Never was that more true than in a gunfight. Everybody has a plan till the first bark, spit, spurt, and roar of a firearm starts. Then you would do real real good to keep your head down and count your toes. A ccw weapon is not a gun you pack to give you a chance IN a fight. It is a gun you pack to give you a chance to get OUT of a fight.

Thats my 2 cents. No offense ment to anybody.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Originally Posted by GoodOlBoy

A ccw weapon is not a gun you pack to give you a chance IN a fight. It is a gun you pack to give you a chance to get OUT of a fight.

GoodOlBoy

GOB..you only forgot one word in that last statement...right at the end you should have put the word...ALIVE

And I didn't mean to imply you were meaning to offend anyone..I know better

[popplecop]

Not going to get into a disagreement over training, but one is supposed to react as trained with thought, The new simulators that have come out since my retirement 22 years ago. But repetetive training does work, been there done that.

[GoodOlBoy]

Training is good and great, but I watched several dozen cops fall apart despite decades of training when they were put up against "a stupid untrained civillian" that actually knew more about guns and shooting than they did. They fell apart so badly that two of them said "I saw the gun as he reached for it/pulled it and I knew I was dead" so they didn't do anything, just stood there and took the shots in the chest. Good thing for them it was paint not lead. One of them retired two weeks later after 28+ years as a LEO. The only two who DIDN'T fall apart was one younger LEO with about 6 years under his belt (he started right after high school), he did everything by the book and came out with a single graze to the arm. The other was a Sgt with 16+ years under his belt. He would have been seriously wounded (if not dead) from the torso shot, BUT he put four rounds in the chest of the "bad guy" (good grouping too). Everybody else to a man (and several women) was toast. Out of hundreds of rounds fired by LEOs that day only nine total rounds hit the bad guy. Only five of those would have been fatal. Of the dozens of rounds fired by the bad guy that day there were no misses, three that would have been serious wounds, and seven that would have given the officers a 50/50 shot at survival with good medical help. The rest would have been fatal.

Training works, but ONLY if you take it seriously, and keep it up. When a trained person goes through training, gets the job, then stops doing anything but going on patrol and drinking coffee for years on end?

Some people are untrainable. Some trainers are useless. Some people train once and figure they are the best they will ever be, or figure they don't need more training. All these situations can be fatal if things go bad.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Well GOB you may be right..but there is one saving grace in all this mess..The BGs are as rattled as many of the leos are..so most of their shots go astray also.. If not we'd have lots more cops dead on the street. One thing we really don't need. Cops have a tendency to become a little more focused when they lose one of their own. Proddy might be a better word..Been there...Seen that

[GoodOlBoy]

Let me add an adendum here. I know many LEOs personally, and I hope I never have to attend another funeral for one I know. If I were a LEO and my job was going out in the world each day to face God knows what then I would want all the training I could get, I would want it from the best, and I would want to keep it up. I would spend time at the range at least once a month (Most LEOs I know only hit the range once a year to qualify and keep their only firearm locked in a locker at work). And rather than being arogant about my abilities I would WANT to find out where I was lacking and work on it.

Sadly that is not the way most LEOs I have ever met think. In point of fact most good old regular LEOs I have met sneer at the idea. Most SWAT LEOs I know think that way, but they are SWAT. You hafta be two thirds outa the norm to be SWAT anyway (and I don't mean that in a bad way)

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh I would agree Skeet. 99% of BGs are going to have to get lucky (unfortunantly some of them are VERY lucky) to get the drop on a LEO with any experience. That 1% is the bear to deal with though.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Originally Posted by GoodOlBoy

Most SWAT LEOs I know think that way, but they are SWAT. You hafta be two thirds outa the norm to be SWAT anyway (and I don't mean that in a bad way)

GoodOlBoy

Yeah ya do GOB..Swat guys are all half crazy to begin with..unless they are picked for it without volunteering. Some are in it that way. Sadly some are in it for the thrill of Victory..and never see the Agony of Defeat - right around the corner. Also sadly I know an awful lot of cops..and seriously... about a third do the job for the "thrill" of being in charge..they actually enjoy using their power. One knows he is better than the "public" he is entrusted to help protect. He is also on a regional Swat team..Luckily he is back in Maryland..not too far from Fab's area.. Very close in fact.

[popplecop]

LEOs that train only once a year are on a department with poor leadership or no leadership. Chiefs always whine about budgets and probably couldn't qualify themselves. Let me tell you one law suit wether won or lost would pay for a lot of training. Leaveing your firearm in your locker if you don't have another one, shows me the person should look for a new career. I served as a firearms training officer for the last `15 years of my career and was on the training comm. for all training. My wants in the Army and as a LEO were the same a qualified well trained person next to me when the crap hit the fan and thankfully it did on all occassions.

[skeet]

I did a lot of training myself. Always liked to have a person next to me I had trained..Knew what to expect out of 'em.. We weren't training against other people..fire and it's environs..Still pretty dangerous..