Where oh where is America going?

[skeet]

Well here we go again..

Originally Posted by fabsroman

The big problem with Cap & Trade is that the people that enjoy the least amount of pollution will also enjoy the cheapest electric bills because the electric companies that do not pollute can sell their unused credits to those companies that do pollute a lot. Now, to pay for the credits the polluting companies need, they will have to raise the rates on their users. Not only will those people be living in smog, but they will have to pay extra for the smog.

Fabs..my friend what part of this don't you understand?? This isn't about pollution.. Get with it here.. This is all about TAXES> Generation of MORE money for the gummit. They could care less about the pollution. You're starting to sound like one of the greenies> Are we as a nation creating the worldwide pollution problems solely?? If we are the only nation that does this cap and trade bullsh**t it won't make even 1% of difference worldwide. The Europeans have left cap and trade waaayyy behind in the dust.

With that said, I have no idea how to solve this problem. We could fine the crap out of the heaviest polluters, but that would just result in the rates being raised for the end users.

Problem?? See previous answer. The gummit in power at this time in this country wants only one thing..CONTROL...Controlling power generation will surely bring many to their knees in this country..They really wouldn't know how to live without their electricity. And don't forget the NIMBYs That is why we have no new refineries etc etc etc. And as I said..they surely don't want one of those nasty lookin windmills in their back yard. Not even solar panels cause they are ugly..sheesh! And the cost of setting up a solar generation for each house is way to high..as much as 35-40 thousand bucks at present costs.

As far as wind power generation is concerned, I just read something today that says the US is #1 in the generation of power from wind.

But look where most of the wind generation is..out here in the mid and rocky mountain west. As I said..Not In My Back Yard is their cry..but they want to be eco friendly?? One of the big financiers has already dropped his pipe dream about windpower generation. Found out there would be too much cost to get the power back to the people..

Now, another way for us to help all of this out is to stop using the AC, and to use other high draw appliances late at night. If EVERYBODY did their part, we wouldn't have as big a problem.

And here , again, we have a problem. Do you really think they are gonna stop..It's ok for everyone else to stop..but not THEM. You know... I'm not a big conspiracy theorist.. but it is looking more and more like Gore and his cronies are attempting to scare everyone into going along with them in lockstep..Just more control. Higher prices for us the consumers and no real net gain environmentally or economically. The extra taxes will just go to pay for more marxist programs. As Pogo would say..I thinks we is in deep do-do

[fabsroman]

Let me start off with saying that I am not in favor of Cap & Trade. However, I am in favor of some sort of regulation regarding pollution.

Why isn't everybody that is up in arms about carbon pollution (e.g., the smog you see in LA and the haze in New York City) up in arms about laws regarding littering? The crap being belched into the sky is the same thing as the crap being throw on the side of the road, just slightly different. When you live in Wyoming with nice clean air and beautiful skies, or on the Eastern Shore well away from DC, I guess this isn't that much of a concern.

As far as other countries are concerned, there isn't much we can do about them until they wise up. Again, WE could stop buying their goods, but that will not happen either because WE want everything made under the sun and WE want it as cheap as possible. I've been looking at Made In labels lately, and they are all made in China. It really pisses me off.

FYI - this government doesn't have a clue what they want except that they want to be re-elected, and it isn't looking that good for them in 2010 from what I have seen. What really talks is the lobby money. That is what really controls the government. Without that money and those backers, these politicians cannot get re-elected.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fabsroman

Let me start off with saying that I am not in favor of Cap & Trade. However, I am in favor of some sort of regulation regarding pollution.

Why isn't everybody that is up in arms about carbon pollution (e.g., the smog you see in LA and the haze in New York City) up in arms about laws regarding littering? The crap being belched into the sky is the same thing as the crap being throw on the side of the road, just slightly different. When you live in Wyoming with nice clean air and beautiful skies, or on the Eastern Shore well away from DC, I guess this isn't that much of a concern.

As far as other countries are concerned, there isn't much we can do about them until they wise up. Again, WE could stop buying their goods, but that will not happen either because WE want everything made under the sun and WE want it as cheap as possible. I've been looking at Made In labels lately, and they are all made in China. It really pisses me off.

FYI - this government doesn't have a clue what they want except that they want to be re-elected, and it isn't looking that good for them in 2010 from what I have seen. What really talks is the lobby money. That is what really controls the government. Without that money and those backers, these politicians cannot get re-elected.

Let's answer this by paragaph.. Let me ask you Fabs..when has the government ever regulated anything for the common good in a reasonably competent manner.. . Governments are born to regulate but also born to fail miserably for the most part.

As far as the 2nd paragraph..you know not where of you speak. The Eastern shore air is even worse than the air yo breath. It is also one of the most cancer ridden areas in the US. as far as Wyoming..the only reaon the air here is clean to breath is because we have no "major" cities and few people. But we do have the west coast air to breath. As far as the world's air..Tell me Fabs..how do 300 million people affect the world so much more negatively than a Billion in India and a billion and a half(or more ) in China..And the Billion or so in all of Europe? Yep...we use more carboniferous fuels than China..or India.. but that is changing fast and they surely are not going to TAX themselves like the idiots in Washington want to do to us. That is ALL Cap and Trade is. A tax on us the consumer and a way for some businesses to make MUCH more money. Give us a real workable solution to our ecological problems.. I doubt you can do any better than the goobers running this country..Dems or Repubs.. Regulation really isn't the key...unless you want to regulate the coal using companies and make them stop polluting without charging the consumer for their polluting ways. Make 'em fix it without charging..TAKE HALF OF THEIR PROFIT and make 'em pay to fix the problems with the lost revenue. They have NO incentive to fix it..unless they can make a profit by doing so....ergo...Cap and Trade. And BIG Business will embrace cap and Trade because they can make more money from it. Let's point the fingers in the right direction.

As far as the politicians..It ain't looking good for who?? The Dems or the Repubs.. There ain't 'nuff difference between the two to make a hill of beans. Never thought I would say this but we need to make Term Limits and do it soon. 2 Terms and that is it.. even if it is 2 terms as dog catcher that is it. NO more anything. And we NEED to do away with all these people that work on the Congressmen and Senators. The corrupting influence of these Lobbyists is tremendous. Let's make lobbying illegal..and term limits will also reduce the amount of influence that lobbyists could bring to bear. The Dems are paying through OUR noses to make certain they are re-elected. I call them Dems but way too many are not democrats but Marxists. They are not much different than despots who take from you and give to those that will support them...rich or poor. Lets make 13 million illegals citizens..6 million will vote democrat next election..talk about corruption??? And there is a move afoot to remove the constitutional amendment limiting the president to two terms.. Shades of dictatorship!!

[PJgunner]

A bit OT, but something I haven't seen anyone address. There's all this talk about giant windmills and solar heating. Well, I dunno if in most places there is enough wind to do all that much good and they are IMHO ugly as hell. Solar heating can only work (?) in places where it gets hot, like the desert southwest and in other places with warmer climates. What happens to those solar panels after a strong thunderstorm with hail a half inch in diameter and bigger? Wiped out that's what. some of my neighbors went to solar heating for their hot water supply which kept the bill for the hot water heater down. The one next door got repalce three time in two summers because of hail damage during thunderstorm activity. I'm sure Owl Gore will ask the Congress to outlaw thunderstorms and other forms of inclement weather like cloudy skies keeping the sun away from the panels.
Cap and trade in total unmitigated BS put in place to keep us under Big Brother's thumb. After all, if they take all out discretionary cash though cap and trade taxes which will only go higher as they find new excuses to stick it to us, so that soon we'll be so broke that we will be under total control.
I just don't dare state exactly how I feel about all this. The insane are running the asylum, that's for sure.
Paul B.

[skeet]

Actually PJ..solar panels work really well wherever the sun shines a lot. Even here in Wyoming..especially here with more than 300 days of sun. Windmills may be ugly but they do work and work well where the wind does blow. Very efficient...but there is really no way to store the electricity ...and transmission of the generated electricity is a little different. It comes from places where the infrastructure is not in place. Electricity is generated at a rate that supposedly keeps up with demand...except where they have brownouts. Now the big question. If the gummit gets their hands in the pie..what's gonna happen. Will they allocate the electricity to areas where there are more (or more important) people?? Just like health care..the gummit WILL allocate if they be in charge ya know. BTW according to ne of the people I talked with..the average windmill genrates enough electricity for more than 40 houses.. at approx a million bucks a pop....so it will take about 30 yrs to pay for one..including maintenance......ah..yeah.. Well let's not get carried away here Obama. How ya gonna make this pay?? Oh..that's right..we'll pay more in electric bills and taxes and get less reliable service huh?? And y'all in the gummit will decide who gets what..No thanks!!

[fabsroman]

Originally Posted by skeet

Let's answer this by paragaph.. Let me ask you Fabs..when has the government ever regulated anything for the common good in a reasonably competent manner.. . Governments are born to regulate but also born to fail miserably for the most part.

Alright, we shall go through this paragraph by paragraph. Now, you do realize that government regulation is all around us, correct. When you stop at a stop light at an intersection, that is government regulation. When you don't kill somebody or don't steal from somebody because of the criminal consequences, that is government regulation. I think the traffic system and criminal system is regulated pretty well, even though it could definitely use some tweaks here and there. The airline industry isn't regulated too badly either. Would you prefer that there be no government regulation of the airline industry and that you rely on Delta, American, or whatever other company for your safety, whose main goal is profit and keeping the company out of bankruptcy?

Since this is a hunting board, how about the government regulation of hunting. Do you think hunters by themselves would ensure the existence of a species? Do you think the guides on the Eastern Shore would have stopped hunting the Atlantic canada goose population without the government putting a moratorium on them? How about black ducks and canvasbacks? What do you think would have happened to them if there were no season limits or closed seasons on occasion? If market hunting hadn't been outlawed, do you think we would have the waterfowl populations that we have right now. Yeah, government regulation isn't working in that regard either. Let me know if you want me to continue providing examples of where government regulation has worked pretty well over the years.

As far as the 2nd paragraph..you know not where of you speak. The Eastern shore air is even worse than the air yo breath. It is also one of the most cancer ridden areas in the US. as far as Wyoming..the only reaon the air here is clean to breath is because we have no "major" cities and few people. But we do have the west coast air to breath. As far as the world's air..Tell me Fabs..how do 300 million people affect the world so much more negatively than a Billion in India and a billion and a half(or more ) in China..And the Billion or so in all of Europe? Yep...we use more carboniferous fuels than China..or India.. but that is changing fast and they surely are not going to TAX themselves like the idiots in Washington want to do to us. That is ALL Cap and Trade is. A tax on us the consumer and a way for some businesses to make MUCH more money. Give us a real workable solution to our ecological problems.. I doubt you can do any better than the goobers running this country..Dems or Repubs.. Regulation really isn't the key...unless you want to regulate the coal using companies and make them stop polluting without charging the consumer for their polluting ways. Make 'em fix it without charging..TAKE HALF OF THEIR PROFIT and make 'em pay to fix the problems with the lost revenue. They have NO incentive to fix it..unless they can make a profit by doing so....ergo...Cap and Trade. And BIG Business will embrace cap and Trade because they can make more money from it. Let's point the fingers in the right direction.

Alright, I know not of what I speak. So, what you are telling me is that the Eastern Shore air sucked, and what is in Wyoming isn't that good either; however, we shouldn't worry about regulating this pollution, which is worse than I even thought according to your account of it Skeet. Of course, we can rely on the companies themselves to regulate this stuff and not pollute, isn't that correct. I'll give you a case study. Do some research on the Cuyahoga River in Ohio and compare it from the 60's to today. The reason it is so much better today is because of government regulation. Good Lord, just look at the Bay. If the government didn't step in with regulations, where do you think that would be. I'm not hooked on global warming, but I think we need to limit the amount of crap that gets spewed into the air. As far as India and China are concerned, there isn't much we can do about that. Now, do you lay awake at night wondering if your neighbor is recycling? I don't, but I make damn sure I do my part and recycle what I can and dispose of motor oil and other chemicals properly. I'm not a big fan of Cap & Trade, but I do think that carbon emission has to be regulated in some manner.

As far as the politicians..It ain't looking good for who?? The Dems or the Repubs.. There ain't 'nuff difference between the two to make a hill of beans. Never thought I would say this but we need to make Term Limits and do it soon. 2 Terms and that is it.. even if it is 2 terms as dog catcher that is it. NO more anything. And we NEED to do away with all these people that work on the Congressmen and Senators. The corrupting influence of these Lobbyists is tremendous. Let's make lobbying illegal..and term limits will also reduce the amount of influence that lobbyists could bring to bear. The Dems are paying through OUR noses to make certain they are re-elected. I call them Dems but way too many are not democrats but Marxists. They are not much different than despots who take from you and give to those that will support them...rich or poor. Lets make 13 million illegals citizens..6 million will vote democrat next election..talk about corruption??? And there is a move afoot to remove the constitutional amendment limiting the president to two terms.. Shades of dictatorship!!

That statement was meant to mean it isn't looking good for the Democrats. However, I will agree that we need a lot of new blood in there, and that we need to do something about lobbying. Keep in mind though that the NRA is a pretty big lobby too. Can Congress actually get along without lobbyists, and I am not talking from a money perspective, but form a work perspective. Don't the lobbyists draft up most of the bills that eventually become law? Somebody help me out on this one because I am not completely sure. As far as term limits are concerned, I think that is fair, but I think 2 terms in Congress just isn't enough for a politician to get up to speed and get anything done. I would give them 4 terms with mandatory retirement after the term you reach 65 years of age.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fabsroman

Alright, we shall go through this paragraph by paragraph. Now, you do realize that government regulation is all around us, correct. When you stop at a stop light at an intersection, that is government regulation. When you don't kill somebody or don't steal from somebody because of the criminal consequences, that is government regulation. I think the traffic system and criminal system is regulated pretty well, even though it could definitely use some tweaks here and there. The airline industry isn't regulated too badly either. Would you prefer that there be no government regulation of the airline industry and that you rely on Delta, American, or whatever other company for your safety, whose main goal is profit and keeping the company out of bankruptcy?

Since this is a hunting board, how about the government regulation of hunting. Do you think hunters by themselves would ensure the existence of a species? Do you think the guides on the Eastern Shore would have stopped hunting the Atlantic canada goose population without the government putting a moratorium on them? How about black ducks and canvasbacks? What do you think would have happened to them if there were no season limits or closed seasons on occasion? If market hunting hadn't been outlawed, do you think we would have the waterfowl populations that we have right now. Yeah, government regulation isn't working in that regard either. Let me know if you want me to continue providing examples of where government regulation has worked pretty well over the years.



Alright, I know not of what I speak. So, what you are telling me is that the Eastern Shore air sucked, and what is in Wyoming isn't that good either; however, we shouldn't worry about regulating this pollution, which is worse than I even thought according to your account of it Skeet. Of course, we can rely on the companies themselves to regulate this stuff and not pollute, isn't that correct. I'll give you a case study. Do some research on the Cuyahoga River in Ohio and compare it from the 60's to today. The reason it is so much better today is because of government regulation. Good Lord, just look at the Bay. If the government didn't step in with regulations, where do you think that would be. I'm not hooked on global warming, but I think we need to limit the amount of crap that gets spewed into the air. As far as India and China are concerned, there isn't much we can do about that. Now, do you lay awake at night wondering if your neighbor is recycling? I don't, but I make damn sure I do my part and recycle what I can and dispose of motor oil and other chemicals properly. I'm not a big fan of Cap & Trade, but I do think that carbon emission has to be regulated in some manner.



That statement was meant to mean it isn't looking good for the Democrats. However, I will agree that we need a lot of new blood in there, and that we need to do something about lobbying. Keep in mind though that the NRA is a pretty big lobby too. Can Congress actually get along without lobbyists, and I am not talking from a money perspective, but form a work perspective. Don't the lobbyists draft up most of the bills that eventually become law? Somebody help me out on this one because I am not completely sure. As far as term limits are concerned, I think that is fair, but I think 2 terms in Congress just isn't enough for a politician to get up to speed and get anything done. I would give them 4 terms with mandatory retirement after the term you reach 65 years of age.

Fabs of course I realize that we are regulated to death..I know it and so does most everybody else. But the driving rules are not regulations..They used to be but they had to criminalize them. You aren't old enough to remember but it was approx the 1970 era in Md. Why were regulations made into LAWS , you ask?? Lobbying by the trial lawyers assoc. Mo money Fabs...for the lawyers and the state. I even still have a copy here somewhere of the driving regulations of Md from about 1964.. Hunting regulations were also turned into the hunting laws. Why?? so they could criminalize many things..I also remember when game wardens did not carry guns..they didn't really need to for the most part..They also were not officers of the law..and in Md it is a bad thing to be able to carry a gun..unless you be the STATE POLICE..I worked too closely with the Police to respect everything they did. Some stuff they did was actually criminal...on their part. BUT they are the State Police...and better than the common citizen. Don't think so?? Sit in on some of their classes. They actually teach them that they are better..or they did. Fabs..we aren't talking every day regulation(laws?)..we are talking of the government in it's present form changing the actual makeup of this country..by regulation....by them just saying this is the way it's gonna be. I understand you are an officer of the court..but if you can't tell right from wrong as the average person can..then this country is in deep do-do..again. When someone asked one of the framers of the constitution what kind of government we had..he said...A republic..if you can keep it.. Well looks as though we are gonna finally lose the government the founding fathers gave us..

Now as far as lobbyists. Why do we need lobbyists? They write the laws..What are you saying my friend?? If they are writing the laws and you think that is fine..don't look for regulation from companies...unless it will affect their bottom line.It will also affect ours too ya know. To our detriment 2 terms for anyone. And no lobbyists NRA, company or any group. No professional politicians. In Europe they called them the aristocracy..Earls Dukes princes and Kings. This government was set up to make the common man the person who could control his own destiny..Sadly..it ain't that way now..and it's gonna get worse. Not dissing anyone Fabs...but ask a question of yourself..and any one else you may have a discussion on politics with. In the time of the American Revolution...would you have been a Patriot...or a Tory?? It was a tough question then...and getting to be just as tough now. I for one am tired of our "elected" aristocracy!

[PJgunner]

Skeet. I did not say solar energy was inefficient. I'm saying the method of achieving it is vulnerable to the vagaries of wether, IE, strond down bust winds ans hail larger than hald inch, and let's face it, while solar would begreat in my neck of the woods due to probably 275 to 300 days of sunshine, one nasty butt thunderstorm with serious down burst winds or large hail and it'll be a multi-million dollar repair job every time. Arizona has one of the highest rates of summer thunderstorms in the nation, It was number two after Florida until this damn drought hit. Things may be turning a round some as I've seen more thunderstorm activity this year than in the last two years combined.
My points are a photovoltaic cell is highly vulnerable to hail damage. Those very shiney curved metal heat collector would have to be kept polished under normal circumstances and would definitely lose some efficiency due to denting from hail stones. My point being neither system is going to be perfect and maybe not nearly perfect enough in the long run. mainenance will be damnably high and guess who foots the tab?

"Now as far as lobbyists. Why do we need lobbyists? They write the laws..What are you saying my friend?? If they are writing the laws and you think that is fine..don't look for regulation from companies...unless it will affect their bottom line.It will also affect ours too ya know. To our detriment 2 terms for anyone. And no lobbyists NRA, company or any group. No professional politicians. In Europe they called them the aristocracy..Earls Dukes princes and Kings. This government was set up to make the common man the person who could control his own destiny..Sadly..it ain't that way now..and it's gonna get worse. Not dissing anyone Fabs...but ask a question of yourself..and any one else you may have a discussion on politics with. In the time of the American Revolution...would you have been a Patriot...or a Tory?? It was a tough question then...and getting to be just as tough now. I for one am tired of our "elected" aristocracy!

I see I'm not the only one who considers our representatives "Royals" maybe it's time for another Bastille Day. No head lopping though, just lots of hot tar, feathers and a very splintery rail which is IMHO a lot better treatment than they deserve.
Paul B.

[skeet]

[QUOTE=PJgunner;331281]Skeet. I did not say solar energy was inefficient. I'm saying the method of achieving it is vulnerable to the vagaries of wether, IE, strond down bust winds ans hail larger than hald inch, and let's face it, while solar would begreat in my neck of the woods due to probably 275 to 300 days of sunshine, one nasty butt thunderstorm with serious down burst winds or large hail and it'll be a multi-million dollar repair job every time. Arizona has one of the highest rates of summer thunderstorms in the nation, It was number two after Florida until this damn drought hit. Things may be turning a round some as I've seen more thunderstorm activity this year than in the last two years combined.
My points are a photovoltaic cell is highly vulnerable to hail damage. Those very shiney curved metal heat collector would have to be kept polished under normal circumstances and would definitely lose some efficiency due to denting from hail stones. My point being neither system is going to be perfect and maybe not nearly perfect enough in the long run. mainenance will be damnably high and guess who foots the tab?

PJ I thought I understood you. And with some of your points I agree..but I had a couple of solar water heaters back east..in Md with not as much sun as we get out here. It was very efficient and worked even better than I expected. Never had any damage from hail or high winds but it was a concern. 20 yrs of free water heating and an instant on electric water heater when we had many days of no sun. Heck even at near zero in the winter the water got up to 130 degrees. What I did to protect them is something the electric company did with photovoltaics back east. I applied a plastic standoff sheet over them to protect from hail.. Never needed 'em though. Unhappily you must understand. We as consumers foot the bill for what happens now. As was said..they are guaranteed a 10% profit so we pay for repairs to existing supply facilities and even pay 10% extra for costs on any repairs. Sheesh. There are ways to protect most anything. and PV cells are pretty tough. Maybe they will come up with hydrogen fuel cell technology(we really have it now)...just cracking water into H and O. But then they would have to charge us for water at a very high rate... The reason it can't be used now is they can't find a good way to charge us for all this stuff...YET!!

BTW PJ..we are seeing more T storms in our area(had one bout an hour ago..got 2 tenths) than I have seen since moving here. The local folks are really surprised at the amount of rain we have received this year. We've had more than twice the average of 3 1/2 inches so far this year..and 5 months to go. my garden is doing great. Squash cabbageand taters already and beets are ready too. beans will be on next week. Corn is late..Cold spring. Fruit trees and berries are looking good. Have some next year... Apples later this week..