[QUOTE=skeet;336590]
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabsroman
Anyway, I will agree about the voting issue, until they become citizens. However, I don't think non-citizens can vote anyway. The part that you are not getting, is that the penalty to apply for the permanent visa is $15,000 in "back taxes". They aren't getting a free lunch, it will cost them $15,000 and a clean criminal record to become legal.
Well if they aren't gettin a free lunch it is surely close to it And you know the politicians will make the sdame excuses as you do and just give 'em the vote because it's only fair..Fabs..15 million votes is a BIG incentive to half crooked politicians.
The other part you are not getting is that there is NO way you are going to round all these people up that are currently in the US and deport them. Common sense should tell you that. We have enough problems with criminals already that we cannot put through the system and house in jail, that we really do not need to spend additional money on enforcing our immigration laws on people that have been here for 5+ years and caused no trouble.
Again..If ya can't catch 'em and send 'em back to where they came from..how ya gonna tax 'em??..Fabs...it makes no sense.. And as far as making no trouble..what part of ILLEGAL don't you get?? Rewarding people with permanent status just mkes no sense. At one time when our forefathers came here they came for many reasons..religious freedom freedom from retribution from their own governments where they came from..They also came for economic freedoms and relief from ultra high taxes and the government taking all from the working so that unproductives could live too. Why are we changing it here to those conditions..The great experiment..All those European countries ahve already tried and failed in that experiment..now they also have those same legal and illegal immigrant problems..Look at France..and other countries. Reward illegal activity with good actions and the only thing you will receive is more illegal activity. Makin 'em "pay" just doesn't cut it when as you said..you can't catch 'em anyway. Your idea about the money payment is novel...but misguided. As I said..it ain't just money..
Now, after we allow this amnesty program for a year, we really crack down. We tighten up things on the border, require local police to contact INS when they arrest somebody that does not have a green card, and we deport them. The good immigrants will come out and apply to be legal, the bad ones will eventually be rounded up and deported as they hit the system.
You've already answered that one yourself..criminals are very hard to catch..The Gestapo didn't get'r'done..How will the INS?? Sheesh!
Trust me, I'm not trying to make this a gray area. Thing is, in your utopian world we would be able to push a button and teleport these people back to Mexico. We aren't there yet, so it would take a ton of money/effort to get the job done, and who is willing to pay for that? I asked this in an earlier post, ARE YOU WILLING TO PAY MORE IN TAXES to deport 11 million+ illegals and lock down the borders. If you aren't, then you aren't really willing to support what you want. Who knows, with the additional tax revenue from the good portion of the illegals, we might be able to afford to get rid of the bad ones.
Personally I'm willing to spend the money. I think in the end we would have a net gain in the economic situation. You haven't really looked at the cost of illegal immigration. Just check tyhe cost to San Diego county in California..
The reason this is a gray issue is because it isn't easy to 1) deport them all or 2) legalize them all. There are way too many issues, and to view it as a black and white area is to be naive, or to think like a liberal with rose colored glasses on thinking that we can easily deport all 11 million + illegal immigrants. Again, I am looking at it as a realist, not an idealist dreaming of my own version of utopia.
Sorry Fabs..but you do have a utopian dream.. I never said it would be easy to deport all 15 million(insert next weeks number) illegals. What good public work is ever easy.. You think it is just an econmic issue and it isn't.. well maybe it is. The 2nd World War turned into an economic issue..why not this.. Allowing these people who have come here illegally to scoff at our laws and be rewarded for it is just wrong..Just Black and White.. Trying to say that it isn't and ignoring that fact is also wrong. Just by saying they've been here a5 yrs and didn't create any problems doesn't make it no longer an issue. Those people for 5 yrs have helped to rob the economy of the US by sending large portions of their income out of the country and into other countries..not good for our economy for certain.
I would love to see the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation that gets the job done that they want to get done. Keep in mind, 100 years ago things were a lot simpler than they were now, so the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker didn't really have to worry too much about things. Start talking about derivative investments and other complex issues, and we will see how the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker draft legislation on their own. I'm sure the attorneys would have a field day with a lot of it, on one side or the other, and there would be plenty of loopholes in the laws that the butcher, baker, and candlestick maker never thought were there.
That last was written like a TRUE attorney..Loopholes!!. Lawyers have been writing legal loopholes for a couple hundred years...And you would accuse the B.B and CSM of doing it inadvertantly??..surely couldn't be any worse than we have now. That is truly an laughable statement. I have tears runnin outta my eyes while I'm typing this. You are without a doubt a hoot my friend. Fabs..there really is a time when we have to consider the illegal problem as a Black/White issue...and it has become that way now..with he idiots we have in power in this country..
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You know what is really hilarious, posting on this board about anything political that is not far right wing leaning. That is what is hilarious. On another board I frequent, a cycling board, they consider me a hard right winger. Honestly, I think I should run for office. I would probably satisfy 80% of the voting public out there, just not the hard left or the hard right. Maybe call my party the "Party of Common Sense".
You take issue with these people sending money out of the country to help their family back in their homeland. So what, I am pretty sure that on any given day American citizens send more money overseas buying imported goods. Take an honest look at the clothing you are wearing and tell me where they are made. Right now, I am wearing Carhart jeans made in Mexico with American fabric, Columbia hiking boots made in Malaysia, and a polo t-shirt made in Honduras with American fabric. That is the best I could do and I try to buy American.
As far as I am concerned, fighting illegal immigration is like fighting the war on drugs and the war on terrorism. It is a losing battle. So, provide a means to get the good people into the system and have them start paying into the system. Then, they will no longer be a burden on society, but contributors instead.
As far as getting the good ones to step forward, it is pretty simple with the amnesty program. Essentially, it gives them a means to become a citizen.
Now, if we aren't going to find a way to allow these people to become citizens and we really want to crack down on illegal immigration, just pass a $50,000 fine MINIMUM per illegal worker hired by anybody an enforce the heck out of it. Of course, the Repulicans aren't too keen on shutting down entire companies by fining them so heavily.
Then, there is the increased cost of housing, groceries, etc. where illegals are usually found working. That is another factor.
Almost nothing is black and white today, as much as you would like to think it is. Try raising the cost of clothing, food, and new homes for this nation right now, and you will really see us hit a recession, if not depression. My wife and I went to look at a new home the other day, and it was running $800,000. Meanwhile, comparable pre-owned homes in the area were running about $600,000 to $650,000. Try raising the cost to build that new home and see how the new home builders do over the next couple of years, along with the construction industry.
Again, nothing is as simple as "let's just invade Afghanistan and Iraq and kick the crap out of the terrorists" or "let's just deport all the illegals currently in this country even though we have no idea how many there are, what it will cost, or how it will truely affect the economy".
You can continue to think it is black and white, but it isn't. In a simple world, maybe, where right and wrong are the only thing that matter. In our current complicated world, it isn't black and white.
06-23-2010, 08:08 PM
Hybrid Mode
