Hunt Chat  

Go Back   Hunt Chat > Wings and Things > Waterfowl

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-30-2010, 09:19 PM
fabsroman's Avatar
fabsroman fabsroman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,823
Hevi-Shot: old vs. new

Just read somewhere that after 2006 Hevi-Shot for waterfowling is being made differently. That is, the shot used for the waterfowl loads is not as dense as it once was. Essentially, the shot is no longer heavier than lead. Albeit, it is close, but not like it once was where it was heavier than lead. Seems that the really dense Hevi-Shot is being used in the turkey loads, and that Hevi-Shot's website seems to support this conclusion. On the turkey load section of the site, for the Hevi-13 it says that it has 40% more knock down power than lead, which is what the waterfowl loads used to say too. Now, the website does not have this language for the waterfowl loads.

What a crock. Are you guys still finding the waterfowl loads to be as effective as they were in 2006 and prior years? I have been using some of the newer Hevi-Shot and either I am completely missing at 50+ yards or the shells just aren't like they used to be. I guess that justifies keeping the cost below $30 for 10 shells.
__________________
The pond, waterfowl, and yellow labs...it don't get any better.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-01-2010, 07:05 AM
Mr. 16 gauge Mr. 16 gauge is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 1,370
Can't answer definetively, as I don't use hevishot all that much. I tried it (before 2006) on a goose hunt and found it to be very effective, but not more so than the Federal Tungsten Iron loads I was using right next to it......both killed geese dead at waterfowling ranges. I bought about 10lbs of the stuff and reloaded it, and still have probably 90% of it left.
I can see where they might decrease the amount of certain metals in the mix, esp. with the cost of metals skyrocketing in recent years. I think there was a poll going around a few years back, asking "how much do you think is too much for a waterfowling shell", or something to that effect.....most folks answered around $3/shell, IIRC. So I can see where the folks at Hevishot would want to keep their product costs down. After all, if there are other nontoxics out there that are just as effective, and cost the same, why should I use hevishot, esp. if I can't use it out of my muzzleloader, older shotguns, ect.

As for turkey loads: Seeing as how you will probably only fire one or two rounds a year, I can see where they would keep their formula the same for these folks.....they aren't going through a case of shotshells a year on their sport.
__________________
If your dog thinks that your the greatest, don't go seeking a second opinion!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-02-2010, 07:42 PM
popplecop popplecop is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Centeral Wisconsin
Posts: 964
Can't help either, the Hevi Shot I've got is from 06 too. Don't use it much as most of my duck hunting done over decoys. Also most of the time useing vintage SxSs so use bismuth or Kent Matrix.
__________________
VFW Life Member, NRA Life Member, Wisconsin Conservation Warden Assoc. Life Member, Wisconsin Waterfowl Assoc. Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-09-2010, 03:23 PM
grayghost's Avatar
grayghost grayghost is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 2,721
I'm not paying $25-$30 for any box of 10 shells. I have no problems killing ducks/geese with Winchester or Kent steel loads. No, I'm not pass shooting but I do knock Snow geese out of the sky with steel BB's (3"). Most of my hunting is over decoys. I have no issue with anyone using high dollar shells, but to me, we're getting hosed and I'm not buying it. I have shot some of the expensive loads (field tested) and my end results were no better than steel. If you can work ducks and geese into reasonable range, steel will kill effectively.
gg
__________________
In the end...the hunter hunts himself

Worldwide Hunting:
www.grayghostsafaris.com
Metal Detecting Equipment:
www.dixie-metal-detectors.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-12-2010, 02:21 AM
fabsroman's Avatar
fabsroman fabsroman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by grayghost View Post
I'm not paying $25-$30 for any box of 10 shells. I have no problems killing ducks/geese with Winchester or Kent steel loads. No, I'm not pass shooting but I do knock Snow geese out of the sky with steel BB's (3"). Most of my hunting is over decoys. I have no issue with anyone using high dollar shells, but to me, we're getting hosed and I'm not buying it. I have shot some of the expensive loads (field tested) and my end results were no better than steel. If you can work ducks and geese into reasonable range, steel will kill effectively.
gg
Yeah, my first two shells are usually steel and the third shell is Hevi-Shot or Remington HD. From now on though, it will either be Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote which uses pellets that are heavier than lead or Remington HD where the pellets are heavier than lead. Looks like Environmetal has decided to scrimp to save a couple dollars and beat out Remington on the price point. If I am already paying $28 for 10 shells, what the heck is another $5.

In my opinion, there is definitely a difference between true Hevi-Shot and steel in the performance category. Yeah, Hevi-Shot isn't needed for the close shots, but who really knows what the situation is going to present. Sometimes, the birds just don't want to come in close. Had one group land on the outer edge of the decoys a couple of weeks ago and that was 60 to 70 yards out in the field. You just never know.
__________________
The pond, waterfowl, and yellow labs...it don't get any better.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-12-2010, 06:01 AM
Mr. 16 gauge Mr. 16 gauge is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 1,370
Quote:
Yeah, Hevi-Shot isn't needed for the close shots, but who really knows what the situation is going to present. Sometimes, the birds just don't want to come in close.
This is the problem on the managed areas that I hunt: Guys don't let the birds work the decoys, and take shots that are way out of range. So now the birds won't come in close, and the guy feels he needs something with "longer range", so they buy hevi or something similar, and take longer shots.....way to long (100+ yards). All this does is educate the birds to fly even higher, and those that are hit become sailers and end up in the refuge, where they become statistics. Then the rest of the season, it becomes nothing but pass shooting......might as well leave the dekes at home.
It's very frustrating.....................
__________________
If your dog thinks that your the greatest, don't go seeking a second opinion!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-12-2010, 09:04 AM
popplecop popplecop is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Centeral Wisconsin
Posts: 964
Know what you mean about people not knowing distances. Some think that because they have the latest waterfowl gun and 3.5 shells they can kill ducks out to 70-80 yds. I'm going to make a statement that's going to get me in hot water, but so be it: In 60 years of hunting the skill level in waterfowl hunting and deer hunting has declined. By this I mean the art of decoying and calling is not what it used to be. As far as deer hunting goes take away baiting and lot of guys couldn't shoot a deer.
__________________
VFW Life Member, NRA Life Member, Wisconsin Conservation Warden Assoc. Life Member, Wisconsin Waterfowl Assoc. Life Member
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-12-2010, 04:36 PM
fabsroman's Avatar
fabsroman fabsroman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 16 gauge View Post
This is the problem on the managed areas that I hunt: Guys don't let the birds work the decoys, and take shots that are way out of range. So now the birds won't come in close, and the guy feels he needs something with "longer range", so they buy hevi or something similar, and take longer shots.....way to long (100+ yards). All this does is educate the birds to fly even higher, and those that are hit become sailers and end up in the refuge, where they become statistics. Then the rest of the season, it becomes nothing but pass shooting......might as well leave the dekes at home.
It's very frustrating.....................
Not only does Rapier make me look like an irresponsible idiot on another thread this week for not cleaning my guns, but now you guys are making it look like I cannot call or shoot geese and that I am some rookie hunter out there.

Simply put, my wife and I are just below Obama's definition of rich, so buying Hevi-Shot doesn't hurt the pocket book as much as it would have 12 years ago when I was just out of law school. However, I bought some of the stuff even back then when it came out, which I think was 10 or so years ago.

Do I need to post the pics I have of truck loads full of geese? Before I had kids, I would routinely kill 100 geese a season. Sometimes, we would have our limit in a field before 9:00 in the morning. One of the best hunts I have had was with my dad on the last day of the season about 7 years ago. We had our 5 bird each limit by 9:00 and were trying to get out of our field, with birds still trying to come in, with guys hunting the field right next to us. I was pulling birds away from them that morning and they were skybusting some of them out of frustration. They were also very rude to me when I went to speak to them first thing in the morning when they set up right on the edge of the field we were hunting. I almost wanted to park my truck there right on the edge the rest of the day just to piss them off, but decided to be a nice guy instead. One of the few instances where I have turned the other cheek.

As far as shooting ability goes, I hate to toot my own horn. There are a couple of people on this board that have shot with me. Skeet and DelDuck are two that come to mind. For the most part, I shoot around 90% in sporting clays. Best score ever was a 48 out of 50, but I also don't shoot them as often any more. 60 yard shots aren't impossible for me, and the guys I have hunted with have always been surprised by my shooting ability. A lot of the guys cannot kill a goose unless it is backpedaling with its feet down. Well, that isn't me. However, since I hunt with these guys I try to get the geese to come in as close as possible before calling the shot. Like I said, I waited on a group the Friday after Thanksgiving until they actually landed in the decoys. Actually had a pair come in and land on the edge of the decoys, let them sit there for the next group, and had another bunch land right next to the pair. That is when I decided to shoot them.

Yeah, I am not a big proponent of skybusting and that is the reason the first 2 shells are steel. After that, it is Hevi and any reloading I can do before the geese are out of shooting range is with Hevi. They are in the right front pocket of my parka.

I bought an SBE because of the reviews I read about it. 13 years later, it was a good purchase.
I bought my first bunch of Hevi-Shot because of what I read about it and because I wanted to try it out. When I crushed a mallard 50+ yards directly above me trying to leave dodge after I downed the other two birds that came in with it (i.e., the threesome came in nice and low and on a string for the decoys, but this third one made it through and decided to gain altitude and come back around for another look). That bird came down like a rock and was dead as a stone. I was shocked at how well the Hevi #2 worked and have been using it since. For the most part, I don't use it during early season because the birds are really dumb in September.
I bought a patternmaster choke because of what I read about it, and after patterning with it, guess what, it works in my gun.

Granted, I have only been hunting waterfowl for 14 years now and only have 14 bands, one of which is a $100 reward band on a mallard that I shot in the scenario set forth above. Actually got a band Thanksgiving weekend on the morning my dad, brother, and I shot our limit by 9:00, maybe 9:30, and we shot like poo that morning. A father/son pair that I hunt with, and really, really like, have been doing this for 4+ years now and neither of them have gotten a band. So, I must be doing something somewhat right, or like they say, I swallowed a horse shoe.
__________________
The pond, waterfowl, and yellow labs...it don't get any better.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-12-2010, 04:42 PM
fabsroman's Avatar
fabsroman fabsroman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by popplecop View Post
Know what you mean about people not knowing distances. Some think that because they have the latest waterfowl gun and 3.5 shells they can kill ducks out to 70-80 yds. I'm going to make a statement that's going to get me in hot water, but so be it: In 60 years of hunting the skill level in waterfowl hunting and deer hunting has declined. By this I mean the art of decoying and calling is not what it used to be. As far as deer hunting goes take away baiting and lot of guys couldn't shoot a deer.
While I have been bird hunting for 30 years, waterfowling for 14 years now, and am 39 years old right now, I have no idea how things were back in the day because before reaching 25 years of age about the only people I hunted with were my dad and uncle. So, I have no idea what people's ability in general was 30 or 40 years ago. However, I will agree that a lot of hunters have no freaking clue what they are doing, much less any ability to shoot. Like anything else, being a good hunter requires extreme attention to detail and a decent amount of practice shooting. Luckily, I am extremely detail oriented (would have used a reference to the rear, but it probably would not have made it through) and I am pretty passionate about hunting. After we get a single family home, the next thing on the list is a farm. When we eventually retire, I want to move to the farm and get away from this mess around the city. As it is right now, I could spend a lot of time on the farm since I can work from almost anywhere. Problem is, the kids are 3 1/2 and 1 1/2, so living on a farm will not be the best thing for them IMO and my wife's opinion.
__________________
The pond, waterfowl, and yellow labs...it don't get any better.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-12-2010, 05:22 PM
skeet skeet is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northwest Wyoming
Posts: 4,576
Just a dumb question Fabs..why would it be a bad idea for your kids to grow up on a farm?? My wife did as I pretty much did, as well as my kids and my grandkids. Wouldn't hurt them a bit and they won't grow up dumb either. In fact they would probably be so much better for it!! Spend the bucks now and enjoy the country..it won't be there for you and them later..unless you move away from the area you are in..remember when IT was country??
__________________
skeet@huntchat.com

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-12-2010, 06:07 PM
fabsroman's Avatar
fabsroman fabsroman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeet View Post
Just a dumb question Fabs..why would it be a bad idea for your kids to grow up on a farm?? My wife did as I pretty much did, as well as my kids and my grandkids. Wouldn't hurt them a bit and they won't grow up dumb either. In fact they would probably be so much better for it!! Spend the bucks now and enjoy the country..it won't be there for you and them later..unless you move away from the area you are in..remember when IT was country??
Thing is, when I was writing that I was thinking about your farm on the Eastern Shore and I also knew I would be getting a response from you about this. Yeah, I am on the fence about it, but leaning toward Howard County's education system since it is one of the better ones in the country, along with Montgomery County. I don't want to start comparing your kids, which I assume are my age, to me and my wife. Then, there is my two brothers, one of which graduated high school with a 1.0 gpa and neither of which got a college degree. Then, there is my two sisters that both did pretty well in high school, got college degrees, and one of which is a CPA. Ultimately, I think kids can get a pretty decent education almost anywhere with some exceptions (e.g., DC, Compton, Harlem), but some places just provide way more opportunities than others. Kind of like "It isn't what you know, but who you know that matters."

All I know is I grew up in Montgomery County and it provided a pretty good education for me. Of course, the school I went to in the 80's now gets a 6 out of 10 on greatschools.com. The majority of schools in the Howard County area get 10's out of 10, and my wife is working in Howard County, so that is where we are headed. I also want to stay close to my parents and brothers in Silver Spring, one sister in Bethesda, and the other sister in annapolis. Granted, we are looking at western Howard County where there is still some open space. Put offers on two places that were just under 6 acres, but we didn't get them. I also have access to a 100 acre farm out there and another 180 acre farm down I-70 in Washington County. Once I get to Howard County I will probably end up getting to know a lot more farm owners.

My law/tax practice is made up of a lot of people that I grew up with in this area. So, moving to the Eastern Shore or western Maryland also kills me there. Plus, I think it will provide one heck of an opportunity for my kids if they want to be attorneys/CPA's. If I am still alive at that point they could just take over my practice. I'll be alright with them becoming brain surgeons too.

Yeah, I agree that what was once country is where I am currently living. Our townhouse was built in 1997 on a place that used to be a dairy farm. Down the road from here, I used to dove and waterfowl hunt in the mid 90s' where it was just cornfields. Now, those cornfields are developments. There was a nice farm right up the road from me with a nice pond on it that got ducks in it. They are now draining the pond and starting to build a road into this huge farm so they can build houses. At least it has taken them 10 years of building in Clarksburg to finally get to that last section of the development. I am really hoping that this down turn really puts a hurting on new home construction and the birth rate, but that is wishful thinking.

Ultimately, there are a lot of factors going into where we move. My wife likes where she works. Most of my clients are between Baltimore and DC, with some exceptions over in Annapolis and in Frederick and Washington Counties. I know this area pretty well. Along with hunting, shooting, and fishing, I like riding my bike and there are ZERO climbs on the Eastern Shore and way too many in western Maryland. I am stuck in Maryland because of my law and CPA license. The list goes on and on.
__________________
The pond, waterfowl, and yellow labs...it don't get any better.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-12-2010, 08:29 PM
skeet skeet is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Northwest Wyoming
Posts: 4,576
Fabs..not dissing you..but all the "reasons" you enumerated aren't really reasons..they are excuses. Ask me how I know it. I used 'em all myself. when I wanted to do something else with my life. I "convinced" myself the same way you are doing. To give you an idea..You can make a pretty fair living anywhere. You can do so much of the work you do at home. All schoold seem to have some good classes. My grandkids are both in gifted programs as they should be. Grandson is finishing up calculus now and has a class in an advanced physics coming up soon. In the Queen Annes county system. If the kids are smart they will learn well anywhere. That is your responsibility though. Heck even here the attorneys make really good money. as could you. When the kids get to be in school they won't want to leave their school. Find a nice place now while the costs per acre are down and there are some foreclosures even available. Don't make excuses..make hay while the sun is shining. I still have a couple hundred acres on the shore..can't sell it now for it's true value but I only paid 125 Thousand all those years ago. Didn't think I would ever get it paid for..and it took me a whole 4 yrs. Be creative and be bold. You won't be sorry in the future. Buying another place out here myself..and i don't have a big income. If I can you can too. No excuses..As Yoda said..don't try..just do. Now all we have to do is get rid of the wolves and the elk herd can come back again..
__________________
skeet@huntchat.com

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
Benjamin Franklin
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 12-12-2010, 09:05 PM
Mr. 16 gauge Mr. 16 gauge is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 1,370
Quote:
Not only does Rapier make me look like an irresponsible idiot on another thread this week for not cleaning my guns, but now you guys are making it look like I cannot call or shoot geese and that I am some rookie hunter out there.
Sorry Fabs, but that was not my intention......this is just something that I have noticed over the last several years of hunting the managed areas. I don't care how you spend your money; if you wish to use gold shot, be my guest.
The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people (I wont call them hunters) are trying to make up with technology with what they lack in skill. They can't call, so they put out a spinner....or a dozen. They can't (or won't) work birds, so they shoot at long range, and if something is advertised that will allow them to kill 'farther", then they try it......even though they don't have the skill.
Not trying to infer that you're a rookie or irresponsible, and I'm sorry if you took that from my post.
__________________
If your dog thinks that your the greatest, don't go seeking a second opinion!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12-12-2010, 09:09 PM
fabsroman's Avatar
fabsroman fabsroman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeet View Post
Fabs..not dissing you..but all the "reasons" you enumerated aren't really reasons..they are excuses. Ask me how I know it. I used 'em all myself. when I wanted to do something else with my life. I "convinced" myself the same way you are doing. To give you an idea..You can make a pretty fair living anywhere. You can do so much of the work you do at home. All schoold seem to have some good classes. My grandkids are both in gifted programs as they should be. Grandson is finishing up calculus now and has a class in an advanced physics coming up soon. In the Queen Annes county system. If the kids are smart they will learn well anywhere. That is your responsibility though. Heck even here the attorneys make really good money. as could you. When the kids get to be in school they won't want to leave their school. Find a nice place now while the costs per acre are down and there are some foreclosures even available. Don't make excuses..make hay while the sun is shining. I still have a couple hundred acres on the shore..can't sell it now for it's true value but I only paid 125 Thousand all those years ago. Didn't think I would ever get it paid for..and it took me a whole 4 yrs. Be creative and be bold. You won't be sorry in the future. Buying another place out here myself..and i don't have a big income. If I can you can too. No excuses..As Yoda said..don't try..just do. Now all we have to do is get rid of the wolves and the elk herd can come back again..
We can argue this until the cows come in as far as the schools go and where it is best to live. Just as I am sure you have "reasons" for living in the country and "excuses" for living in the city or suburbs, I have my "reasons" for living in the suburbs and "excuses" for living in the country. One of the big reasons for me to stay around here is that my parents watch our kids 2 days out of the week during tax time when I am extremely busy. The rest of the time, I take care of the kids while my wife works and vice versa. The next most important reason is that I get along pretty well with my siblings and don't want to be that far from them. Like I said, the list goes on and on.

Regarding the public school systems, I am sure you can find plenty of exceptions to the rule and/or personal experiences that support your position. The question is about the data. The Howard County school system has pretty high standardized test scores. Granted, those test scores aren't the be all end all regarding how far a child will end up going, but they are a good indicator of the education the child is receiving. Real estate is also a lot higher in areas with really good school districts. Just look at the difference between Montgomery County and Howard County versus Prince George's County as far as house prices are concerned. Give me the names of some of the public schools in Queen Anne's County and I will look them up on great schools to see how they compare. Even if they got 10's, it probably wouldn't change our decision because of all the other factors.

By the way, I was out that way toward the end of October, maybe beginning of November. I have a matter in District Court in Centreville. It was really nice once I got to the 301/50 split, but then I noticed what looked like a little "development" coming into Centreville where the little strip mall with the McDonalds is. Pretty soon, it is going to be built up even over there.

Now, just because I don't want to live over there doesn't mean I am not going to buy land over there. I was just looking at an 80 acre piece of property on the southern part of the Eastern Shore. If we had the house thing figured out, I would be buying that, but we have another 19 months until our daughter starts kindergarten and we will be moving to Howard County. After that, the search for rental property and farm land begins.
__________________
The pond, waterfowl, and yellow labs...it don't get any better.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-12-2010, 09:47 PM
fabsroman's Avatar
fabsroman fabsroman is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Maryland
Posts: 7,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. 16 gauge View Post
Sorry Fabs, but that was not my intention......this is just something that I have noticed over the last several years of hunting the managed areas. I don't care how you spend your money; if you wish to use gold shot, be my guest.
The point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people (I wont call them hunters) are trying to make up with technology with what they lack in skill. They can't call, so they put out a spinner....or a dozen. They can't (or won't) work birds, so they shoot at long range, and if something is advertised that will allow them to kill 'farther", then they try it......even though they don't have the skill.
Not trying to infer that you're a rookie or irresponsible, and I'm sorry if you took that from my post.
Yeah, I think it all comes down to skill regardless of what you are using. However, the technology does give us an edge. Me, I still use a $20 Primos goose flute to call and I kill plenty of birds with it. I also have a Tim Grounds Magnum call, but it just doesn't seem to work as well. I have a mojo goose, mojo duck, and mojo dove. Haven't hunted with the mojos at all this year but have personally killed 6 geese on 3 days of hunting so far this year (i.e., I have limited out every time). My take is that sometimes those mojos work and sometimes they don't. I think the most important thing is being able to read the birds and listen to the birds, and then the next most important thing is putting out a realistic spread. One of the guys I was hunting with told me that it doesn't matter whether the birds are pointed into the wind. However, whenever I study birds on the ground, they are almost always headed into the wind.

Ultimately, I think it comes down to whether people are sportsmen or not. Whether they realize their limitations with a firearm. For instance, I am pretty confident up to 60 yards on doves, ducks, and geese and will go out to 250 on a deer with a rifle, 125 on a deer with a shotgun. After those yardages, everything needs to be right (e.g., wind, stance of the deer) for me to even try to take a longer shot.

I just think we are lacking sportsmen nowadays, and therein lies the problem. We are lacking the type of people that can go out hunting, get nothing, and still come home thinking it was a great day. That is what the marketing is promoting. Just like I think marketing has screwed up the American people and made us buy a lot of crap we don't need (e.g., mojo decoys, Hevi-Shot, patternmaster chokes, $150 calls, $150 for 4 or 6 decoys). Hunting is both a business and a sport. The same thing holds true for cycling. There is so much stuff out there (e.g., ceramic bearings at $150 to $200 a set) that people think will give them the edge. In the end, it comes down to practice/training for the most part.

Too much marketing and people have too little time on their hands because they want to do too much during their lifetime.
__________________
The pond, waterfowl, and yellow labs...it don't get any better.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.