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  #1  
Old 12-16-2002, 08:31 PM
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Question Winchester .22 Accelerators and Sabot loading

Okay, Thee Mad Reloader is going to delve into another topic possibly involving Things That Should Not Be (unless you REALLY like picking steel slivers out of the face)

Anybody remember the Winchester .22 Accelerator? Twas a 55 grain .224" projo in a .308" discarding sabot, available in .30-06. .30-30 and .308. No longer loaded in any of these, BTW.

Talking with "Mighty Max" about a week back, they came up in discussion--and I recall chatting with someone from FNF Construction (months & months prior) who mentioned that "If you check the Shotgun News, you can find the sabots, so you could load your own, you Mad Reloader."

Soooo...at the risk of making myself look ridiculous in public (again) it's time for the first of the two Strange Questions:

Is it possible/practical/PRUDENT to attempt loading "accelerator" style sabot loads?
(I have a .225 Winchester, and am about to commence loading that. Don't really NEED Accelerators. I was just curious. Again)

Secondly--while Mighty Max & I were talking shop--he's flipped through my Knight ML catalogue, and the Cabelas too--and has seen the sabots for .58, .54, .50 and .45 muzzleloaders. He asks me: "Wonder if you could do a sabot round in a .45? That would be pretty freaky!"

I told him I'd look into it. And I've taken some dimensions off a .45 sabot...but let me (re)iterate the second Strange Question:

Is it possible/prudent to do a saboted load in a .45? {.45-70, .450 Marlin, even .45 Colt or .45 Auto-rim}

As with my last Weird Question--nothing has been loaded as of yet involving these concepts.

I'm just really really really curious. And figured it was safer to risk some public embarrasment than for anyone to attempt this and find out it isn't going to work THE HARD WAY!
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2002, 08:56 PM
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Hmmm, interesting.
BTW, it was Remington that made the saboted loads in 30 cal, and they had a reputation for being rather inaccurate....
First step would be to mike one of those 45 cal sabots. If the diameter is correct for, say, the 45-70, you might be able to make it work.
I think in smaller cases like the 45 ACP particularly, and maybe the 45 Colt, you wouldn't have enough powder space to gain anything.
I wonder about twist rate, too. The 30 cal sabots were all shot thru relatively fast twist barrels: 1-10 or 1-12 for '06 and 308, can't recall what the 30-30's standard twist rate is...
If the sabot measured the proper bore diameter, weigh a sabot and the bullet you want to put in it, that will give you a projectile weight to start from.
Never tried this, and it's interesting.....
Got a feeling the twist rate in a 45-70 or 450 Marlin may be a problem (too slow).....
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  #3  
Old 12-16-2002, 09:47 PM
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I was cornered into trying to work up load data for those $%(&#@* things about ten years ago. Awful. At one point, I fired five shots at a 2x4-FOOT piece of cardboard at 25 yards, and only one round hit it.

Wayne Blackwell, a very smart writer and reloader, once tried sabots in a variety of arms. He emphatically warned against trying them in any kind of revolver. I think the sabots got tripped up in the forcing cone and formed a wad. Not good.
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  #4  
Old 12-16-2002, 09:48 PM
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Well, since my Xmas shopping was finished as of 12/8--and I was looking for some reloading & also BP provisions, I decided to risk a couple of bucks & buy a box of 20 Hornady .45 Great Plains Saboted projectiles.

(Cause you can't just buy ONE sabot!)

Worst case scenario, I figured was I'd have a red plastic "Big H" box--which holds 42 rounds of .45 ACP nicely, 20 .357" projectiles of 180 grain weight that I could load in my .38 Special and two dozen little doinky sabots to go in the hardware organizer under "Miscellanneous" Low risk investment.

The blue Hornady sabots mike out at .449-.451 depending upon where along the base I took the measurement. They were MUCH wider at the petals (.472") with the 180 grain JHP stuck inside, but nearly impossible to get a good measurement with the projo removed--because the petals are kind of bendy--but looked to be in the .449 to .451" range by eyeballing.

Haven't bothered checking dimensions on OTHER makes of sabot, as I have NO NEED of a bunch of .40 caliber projectiles along with 30-50 more doinky sabots to take up space in the hardware organizer.

Back to you Jack!
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Or is "less chatter, more splatter" more your style? Then go see Varmint Vapor Vestry!
  #5  
Old 12-16-2002, 10:12 PM
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Also hello Rocky!

Something getting stuck in a revolver forcing cone. Bad medicine indeed.

This worse-than-rain-gutter accuracy you speak of: Was this with a .22 saboted to .30, or with a .38 or .40 saboted to .45? Or both?

Myself, I was picturing he\\acious feed probs with a semiautomatic type action on this Theoretical .45 Concept. Action type I was picturing for a theoretical test bed was some sort of single shot.

Made mention of low to moderate-pressure cartridges due to the fact that I envisioned bigger capacity and zippier rounds turning Mister Sabot into a polyethylene vapor. (been reading up on Pyrodex I have!)

Now here's a question for you all:

How the heck is it that the sabots work with the BP inlines, and the sturdier makes even hold together under the onslaught of a Pyrodex pellet?

A saboted .45 projo apparently works mighty well propelled by 60-100 grains of Pyrodex. But somehow, it all goes to heck in a handbasket once it goes inside a brass casing.

This is what I like about these forums. You can ask about all sorts of strange things that might be tempting to try--and the expertise present will more than likely have already been there before, or know what book and which author might have had experience with same.

So one can avoid the temptation to re-use that cannister of all-the-same-lot Mystery Pulled Powder.

OR: not waste a bunch of good primers and decent powder on a wild goose chase.

So, Rocky Raab--How is it the sabots work with the inlines??
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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."--the late Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)

"When the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice,...for we are hunters, and we want our freedom." Chief Sitting Bull

Live Free or Die!

Thee Mad Reloader (Moderator--Back in Time, Cowboy Action, Outdoor Cooking, Subcalibers)

Or is "less chatter, more splatter" more your style? Then go see Varmint Vapor Vestry!
  #6  
Old 12-17-2002, 09:32 AM
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There are several reasons for that.

MLs operate at much lower pressure than smokeless guns, even that hybrid Savage when it is loaded with 4227.

Black powder or Pyrodex also burns in such a way that there is usually some unburnt powder right next to the base of the bullet, acting as sort of a protective wad/cushion. That keeps the gas heat lower on the base of the sabot. Then there's the velocity. ML sabots might get up to 2300 fps or so, but the 22/30 rounds I was testing hit 3500 or so. (I seldom got a good chrono reading)

I was also working with sabots made of an inferior material. They changed to a completely different plastic after I gave up on the project. I wasn't willing to burn more components to start over again.

In my tests, the sabots sometimes never separated. I have targets with perfect star shapes instead of round holes. Others broke off petals on one side, then tumbled violently. I also have keyholes, both bullet and still-joined units.

I also had great difficulty getting bullets seated in the sabots with any degree of uniformity. The kit came with a nylon seater die and sabotholder base to use in the press. I was never happy with how it worked.
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  #7  
Old 12-17-2002, 11:47 AM
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Beginning to think that this project is one to leave alone, given Rocky's experience....
Also, that .451 sabot miking .472 with a projectile sounds like a big, BIG problem!
I would agree about not shooting them in a revolver- the forcing cone issue will cause problems....
Don't be discouraged, though, MR, sometimes dreaming up 'wacky' ideas leads to some neat discoveries!
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  #8  
Old 12-17-2002, 12:46 PM
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I have a friend that played with the .30 cal. sabots all of one summer. He worked up the best load he could for I think it was 3 - .30-06`s, 2- .308` and a .30-30. He had 1 gun that would shoot 1 in. groups. at 80 yrds., this was the best, but by 120 yrds. the group was close to 2 1/2 in. and by 150 yrds. it was not on a paper plate. He said that all but 1 of the guns would be good for groundhogs at 75 yrds., but that was about it. I had one other friend that tried factory loads in and 06 and he said they were about the same. I got some of the sabots but after talking to these 2 guys I never loaded any of them.
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  #9  
Old 12-17-2002, 06:27 PM
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Jack, Rocky, Catfish:

I think with the Hornady sabots--once loaded, the petals would be compressed into the projectile--digging into the cannelures or whatnot--and the diameter would be a rather liveable .451 or so. They are of a rather soft polythene/polyvinyl material...which was why I had a time and a half trying to mike the one on my lunch break at the office--it tended to compress.

Based on The Rock's experience--and the BP/Pyrodex realm in which the sabots are used--IMO, the ".45 Saboted Cartidge" would be loaded to "Cowboy Action" non gas-checked lead bullet specs theoretically using a .45-70 case---(or mayhaps a Cowboy Action grade loading in .45 Colt in a Thompson Contender?) Something that would definitely be below 2200 f/s upon separation of sabot and generating Black Powder pressure levels at any rate FWTW.

And accuracy would STILL leave a lot to be desired.

Well, not every idea's going to be a winner. Not too worried about this one being INFEASIBLE. Figured my co-worker's suggesting..."Dude, you might be able to re-use that pulled powder once you figure out what it is" MIGHT have worked (Answer from prior thread--NO!}

But I already had some doubts w/r.t. "Mighty Max's" Sabot concept...since REMINGTON has for all intents and purposes discontinued the Accelerators. However--they do perform nicely in the inlines from the glowing reports I've received. So once again, decided to defer & refer to the Professionals.

Now I've got another idea--and this one IS all mine, going to accept full responsibility for this one.

Going through the Pyrodex flyer, noticed they had 30-grain Pyrodex Pellets for the .44/.45 revolvers now. (Old Army, 1860, Rem 1858) Recall from COTW that 30 grains of BP (or its volumetric equivalent of Pyrodex) behind a 220 grain conical would be a good, potent load for a solid frame cap & ball revolver. And with these new pellets...how convenient!

The Pyrodex flyer even makes mention of loading .45 Colt cartridges with the pellet, gave specs for 230 and 250 grainers.
So far so good!

Read further--Mentions ONLY using the .451-.457 round lead ball with the .44/30 Pyrodex Pellet! Advises NOT to use any other projo. FWIW, also mentions never using more than 100 grains equivalent of the pellets in ANY make of in-line, "regardless of manufacturer claims." (BTW, read manufacturer copy for several inlines claiming that 150 grains equivalent will work just fine in their .50's, etc.)

Okay, they can't BOTH be right.

So who is ?

Hogdon/Pyrodex? The inline makers? Or are they both wrong?

My guess is that the folks over at Hogdon's are covering their backsides big-time and are "sandbagging" to avoid any chance of lawsuit.

Awaiting replies, gents. It's going to be a few weeks yet before that 1858 Remmy gets here--and I have a while before I go out and p/u projectiles (either conicals or round balls FWTW!)
...and I'll keep all this in mind for WHEN I score that inline, as a reference!
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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."--the late Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)

"When the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice,...for we are hunters, and we want our freedom." Chief Sitting Bull

Live Free or Die!

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Or is "less chatter, more splatter" more your style? Then go see Varmint Vapor Vestry!
  #10  
Old 12-18-2002, 09:50 AM
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Coincidentally, I spoke very briefly about that 150 vs 100-grain thing with Chris Hodgdon himself last winter (He was telling me about their then-new 777 powder).

The reason Hodgdon recommends against using more than 100-grains worth of pellet, is because it doesn't work well. Too many pellets don't ignite well, don't burn well and aren't very accurate. All you get is greatly increased recoil. It's that simple.

There may be exceptions with certain individual guns, but in Hodgdon's tests, 100-equivalent gave best results.
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  #11  
Old 12-18-2002, 07:24 PM
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Rock:

You spoke with Chris Hogdon?

COOL!

Okay, that answers my question about the 100 grain deal.

Still wondering w/r.t. the round ball vs. conical thing though.

Unless that comes under the same heading as the warning against conicals in the .54 with the pellets---accuracy and performance aren't there.

(Back to Chris Hogdon...How come they discontinued Pyrodex CTG?)
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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."--the late Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)

"When the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice,...for we are hunters, and we want our freedom." Chief Sitting Bull

Live Free or Die!

Thee Mad Reloader (Moderator--Back in Time, Cowboy Action, Outdoor Cooking, Subcalibers)

Or is "less chatter, more splatter" more your style? Then go see Varmint Vapor Vestry!
  #12  
Old 12-18-2002, 09:02 PM
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Well, I am fortunate to be on speaking terms with quite a few high muckety-mucks in the industry, mostly due to either my writing or my earplug business.

(If you get the Varmint Hunter, read Editor John Anderson's report of a Wyoming prairie dog hunt. In it, he says he was protected from the blast of a 6mm-284 rifle by his custom earplugs. Guess who fitted him? Yup.)

I don't have a clue about Pyrodex CTG. I'd guess there was simply not enough demand to justify making it.

The round ball vs slug is only in refence to use in a revolver. A pointed slug doesn't seal the revolver cylinder well enough to allow good ignition of the pellet.
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  #13  
Old 12-19-2002, 06:48 AM
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Thumbs up "Thank you, Stimpy!"--er I mean Rocky Raab!

Well!

Didn't have to transpose ANY of this thread to Modern Muzzys, got all the Pyrodex questions answered here.

And Chris Hogdon & associates' logic WASN'T product liability sandbagging w/r.t. avoiding burst barrels & cylinders--but performance issues (to include proper pellet ignition).

{The advisory against conicals in .54 with pellets--reading p. 4 of the Pyrodex flyer-- THAT's an accuracy issue. The info about revolvers & round balls appears adjacently but under separate heading. Apologies for not stating more clearly in the prior post!)

Would you beleive I pretty much CAN'T get Varmint Hunter magazine in my part of the country? Been looking to buy a copy or 2 or 3 for "Overkill" 'cause he wants to move up from Pest Control to that...no luck!

What bookstore chains would carry it?
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"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro."--the late Hunter S. Thompson (1937-2005)

"When the buffalo are gone, we will hunt mice,...for we are hunters, and we want our freedom." Chief Sitting Bull

Live Free or Die!

Thee Mad Reloader (Moderator--Back in Time, Cowboy Action, Outdoor Cooking, Subcalibers)

Or is "less chatter, more splatter" more your style? Then go see Varmint Vapor Vestry!
  #14  
Old 12-19-2002, 09:37 AM
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Ahhh, that's the key. TVHM isn't a "rack" magazine. It comes only with a membership to the Varmint Hunters Association.

The magazine is published quarterly, but is fat enough to make up for that. Each issue has 208 pages, largely in color.

To join, or check out the association,

Click Here
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  #15  
Old 12-19-2002, 10:36 AM
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I believe that Sinclair will sell you a single issue of Varmint Hunter, although they are frequently out of stock.
www.sinclairintl.com
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