91 yr old war criminal arrested

[fabsroman]

Originally Posted by Mr. 16 gauge

Sorry, but I disagree with most of the posts here.

This story originally broke years ago, as the man in question (Demanjuk (sp?)) lived in the town right next to me ....literally. He is not accused of 'just being a guard'....he is accused of crimes against humanity, including torture and MURDER!!! Lasts time I heard, there was no statute of limitations on murder.
...and, if it was YOUR family members who were murdered, wouldn't you want justice for their killer(s)? Would you let them get away with it, just because they were 'old', or 'just in the wrong place at the wrong time'? I don't buy into the idea that they "had to do it, or else they would face the same treatment"....there were plenty of guards in camps that weren't sadists and murders. Just because this individual managed to hide it so well for all these years doesn't mean he should get a free pass.

Small cog in the machine? Maybe so, but that 'small cog' kept all the big cogs moving....

It's unfortunate that the U.S. must share the blame in some of this.....look into Japan's unit 731 in Manchuria and see the atrocities that they committed in the name of 'scientific research' (if you can stomach it....I work in an O.R. and after seeing/reading some of the things these animals did, I thought I was going to barf.....I had to quit reading half way through). Not only did they commit their atrocities on (primarily) Chinese citizens, but American POWs as well....and our country gave them a 'free pass' in order to get a look at the 'data' because of the cold war. Many of these sadists (er....excuse me, researchers) went on to become prominent politicians, presidents of Universities, heads of industry, ect.....and NONE of them EVER admitted to their crimes. And Japan, as a nation, has never acknowledged the fact that Unit 731 ever existed.
Should we just give them a free pass? After all, they are all old as well.....

Oh, and by the way: Unit 731 also experimented with "balloon bombs" to try and spread biological and chemical weapons over the United States. Little know fact: about 200 of these bombs reached the U.S., and one killed 7 people, including a woman who was 8 months pregnant.
....but let's just give them a free pass; after all, the war was over 60 years ago, and these were just civilians that they made war on....

I've seen other posts on here with re: to crime, criminals 'getting away with murder' because of legal issues filed by the ACLU, ect. You guys get pretty pissed off when you feel that justice is stymied. Yet here you are, doing the same thing because the guy is "old" and "the war was a long time ago".

The smell of hypocrisy is rather rank today....................

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. Ever stop to think that we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan and killed thousands of civilians? That sounds like a war crime to me. How about the fire bombing of Dresden? That one sounds like an atrocity to me too. People will argue that it was done to completely demoralize the Germans, but IMO the war was already over and it wasn't needed.

Didn't we round up Japanese civilians and put them behind fences. Granted, nothing like the German camps or the way the Japanese treated POWs.

Then, you have to keep in mind that the history of wars is usually written by the victors.

Got into it on another chatboard with a Canadian that felt Canada did more in WWII than the US. I guess that is how a Canadian would view it through Canadian eyes.

Finally, I do think the guy was a small cog in a really big machine. If a soldier is given an order to kill civilians, or even torture them, what is that soldier to do. Just look at the US and waterboarding. Let's not even get into the crap that happens at Guantanomo. Not that I completely disagree with it, but just because we might have to court martial a lot more Americans and send the President to prison too.

We happen to be the "good guys" in WWII because we won.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fabsroman

It is all in the eyes of the beholder. Ever stop to think that we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan and killed thousands of civilians? That sounds like a war crime to me. How about the fire bombing of Dresden? That one sounds like an atrocity to me too. People will argue that it was done to completely demoralize the Germans, but IMO the war was already over and it wasn't needed.

Didn't we round up Japanese civilians and put them behind fences. Granted, nothing like the German camps or the way the Japanese treated POWs.

Then, you have to keep in mind that the history of wars is usually written by the victors.

Got into it on another chatboard with a Canadian that felt Canada did more in WWII than the US. I guess that is how a Canadian would view it through Canadian eyes.

Finally, I do think the guy was a small cog in a really big machine. If a soldier is given an order to kill civilians, or even torture them, what is that soldier to do. Just look at the US and waterboarding. Let's not even get into the crap that happens at Guantanomo. Not that I completely disagree with it, but just because we might have to court martial a lot more Americans and send the President to prison too.

We happen to be the "good guys" in WWII because we won.

Fabs you happen to be right about one or two things in all that stuff you posted.. But think of this.. Yep..the victors in a war write the history..or it used to be that way. It is no longer. We dropped bombs in Japan. We killed civilians. Didn't we kill civlilians with the normal bombs? Didn't the Japanese kill civilians? War my friend is not won by the "good guys". It is won by the nastiest SOBS. Seriously How many civilians and military men would have died had we invaded Japan. I submit it would have been more..much more..maybe as many as a million as the Japanese were ready to defend the homeland to the death...men women and children. We could have bombed Tokyo..cut the head off the snake but we didn't do that. It would have killed hundreds of thousands more..and I think you know it. We(meaning the US) did not make the decision to bomb Dresden..which was filled to overflowing with refugees. The Brits wanted that to be done and they got their way. The war was almost over...but many many more people would have died had we done less. Look at the Russians. We talk of the killing of 6 millions civilians in the death camps in Europe(contrary to popular belief they were not all Jews). The Russians killed 20 millions. BUT think of the Rape of Nanking..the Bataan Death march and many other atrocities at the hands of the japanese...especially in China. In Europe the Geneva Convention supposedly reigned...but not with the Japanese. They were not signatories. Now as to waterboarding..it seems it got Bin Hiding. I'm sorry the only way to win a war is to be meaner than the other guy. If that offends your sensibilities..so be it. I am not sorry for that. I'm just glad that you and I have the right to say what we think. That right was given to you and me by ...yep..the meanest SOBS on the block. For that I am happy and will not apologize...and I am sad to think that you will.

[fabsroman]

Originally Posted by skeet

Fabs you happen to be right about one or two things in all that stuff you posted.. But think of this.. Yep..the victors in a war write the history..or it used to be that way. It is no longer. We dropped bombs in Japan. We killed civilians. Didn't we kill civlilians with the normal bombs? Didn't the Japanese kill civilians? War my friend is not won by the "good guys". It is won by the nastiest SOBS. Seriously How many civilians and military men would have died had we invaded Japan. I submit it would have been more..much more..maybe as many as a million as the Japanese were ready to defend the homeland to the death...men women and children. We could have bombed Tokyo..cut the head off the snake but we didn't do that. It would have killed hundreds of thousands more..and I think you know it. We(meaning the US) did not make the decision to bomb Dresden..which was filled to overflowing with refugees. The Brits wanted that to be done and they got their way. The war was almost over...but many many more people would have died had we done less. Look at the Russians. We talk of the killing of 6 millions civilians in the death camps in Europe(contrary to popular belief they were not all Jews). The Russians killed 20 millions. BUT think of the Rape of Nanking..the Bataan Death march and many other atrocities at the hands of the japanese...especially in China. In Europe the Geneva Convention supposedly reigned...but not with the Japanese. They were not signatories. Now as to waterboarding..it seems it got Bin Hiding. I'm sorry the only way to win a war is to be meaner than the other guy. If that offends your sensibilities..so be it. I am not sorry for that. I'm just glad that you and I have the right to say what we think. That right was given to you and me by ...yep..the meanest SOBS on the block. For that I am happy and will not apologize...and I am sad to think that you will.

Hey, don't get mad at the messenger. We pretty much agree on most of this stuff. I just don't agree with throwing some 91 year old man in prison for the stuff he did 60+ years ago in a war, wherein he very well might have been carrying out military orders, and wherein the US doesn't have clean hands.

Somebody suggested that he could have just said no when he was ordered to do these things. Well then, the US could have just said NO to Britain as far as bombing Dresden is concerned.

Do I agree with dropping two atomic bombs on Japan? Yep, but that is because I am viewing it as an American. Heck, I think we should drop a couple in the Middle East and give them a lot more to worry about than their petty little squables. It will save a ton of American lives and a ton of American money. We have nukes to spare, so we really don't have to replace them.

Now, if you want to look at WWII and say that this German was a menace or that specific Japanese soldier was a menace, some 60+ years later, I have an issue with it. Almost have an issue with trying any of the soldiers except for the ones on high. A lot of the high brass from Japan and Germany, including the Emperor of Japan, should have been hanged. Yet, the Emperor was spared.

Last but not least, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!!!!!!! I never once said we should apologize for anything that we did. My examples were to show that the US isn't of clean hands either, and we shouldn't be going around 60+ years later and trying to sentence 90+ year old men to death for things they did during a filthy, disgusting war.

By the way, I also figured you would be the first one to respond. Seems like anything that looks like it might lean left draws you out right away. Kind of like the extreme lefties on the cycling board I visit. In there, anything that barely leans right draws them out. Like I say to them, you my friend, are the problem we have in this country and why the country is so divided. I bet there isn't one single point that you would concede to the left. Me, I sit somewhere in the middle and get crap on both boards. Luckily, I have a thick skin.

[skeet]

Originally Posted by fabsroman

Last but not least, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!!!!!!!!!! I never once said we should apologize for anything that we did. My examples were to show that the US isn't of clean hands either, and we shouldn't be going around 60+ years later and trying to sentence 90+ year old men to death for things they did during a filthy, disgusting war.

By the way, I also figured you would be the first one to respond. Seems like anything that looks like it might lean left draws you out right away. Kind of like the extreme lefties on the cycling board I visit. In there, anything that barely leans right draws them out. Like I say to them, you my friend, are the problem we have in this country and why the country is so divided. I bet there isn't one single point that you would concede to the left. Me, I sit somewhere in the middle and get crap on both boards. Luckily, I have a thick skin.

Fabs I put no words in your mouth. You said yourself we shouldn't have firebombed Dresden or the japs with the nukes. "The war was over?? In neither case was that true. The Germans funneled all those refugees into Dresden for a reason my friend and as I pointed out the japanese would have fought for every blade of grass. And of course the US had dirty hands. As I said the wars are won by the meanest SOBS...and the people with the most resources. We happened to have had both at the time... As far as your leaning left..you do a bit..I lean a bit right. But I don't jump on what you say unless you are clearly wrong. The emperor should have been hung with Tojo but then we would have had a real problem dealing with the japanese people. So not only were we the nasty guys..we were the real patsies after the war..rebuilding those countries with our wealth. Turns out it may have been the smart thing to do.. Many Americans were seriously opposed to doing it though. In some ways you just try to make everything so hard to do. Sometimes as they say..ya got to break a lot of eggs to make an omelet...and it seems like you just want to pass 'em over the pan and say that's good enough...without breaking them. You know..the world is still a very nasty place to play in....and there are some really nasty people in it. Like you I don't think we should be the world's policemen get out of Afghanistan..Libya and all the other sinkholes in the world...and make the US the strong nation that it once was. And not apologizing for being the strong wealthy nation we should be

[fabsroman]

Originally Posted by skeet

Fabs I put no words in your mouth. You said yourself we shouldn't have firebombed Dresden or the japs with the nukes. "The war was over?? In neither case was that true. The Germans funneled all those refugees into Dresden for a reason my friend and as I pointed out the japanese would have fought for every blade of grass. And of course the US had dirty hands. As I said the wars are won by the meanest SOBS...and the people with the most resources. We happened to have had both at the time... As far as your leaning left..you do a bit..I lean a bit right. But I don't jump on what you say unless you are clearly wrong. The emperor should have been hung with Tojo but then we would have had a real problem dealing with the japanese people. So not only were we the nasty guys..we were the real patsies after the war..rebuilding those countries with our wealth. Turns out it may have been the smart thing to do.. Many Americans were seriously opposed to doing it though. In some ways you just try to make everything so hard to do. Sometimes as they say..ya got to break a lot of eggs to make an omelet...and it seems like you just want to pass 'em over the pan and say that's good enough...without breaking them. You know..the world is still a very nasty place to play in....and there are some really nasty people in it. Like you I don't think we should be the world's policemen get out of Afghanistan..Libya and all the other sinkholes in the world...and make the US the strong nation that it once was. And not apologizing for being the strong wealthy nation we should be

Show me where in my post I said we should APOLOGIZE. Just show me that. There is a difference between saying that we should not have done something versus we should apologize for it. So, I stand by what I said.

STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. When you can show me where I said we should APOLOGIZE for dropping the bombs on Japan and where I said we should APOLOGIZE for Dresden, then I will APOLOGIZE to you. Until then, you can STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH.

I also don't mind breaking eggs. Have no issue with any torture that led to Osama Bin Laden, etc. In hindsight we can sit here and Monday morning quarterback the entire freaking war. While it was going down, our only job was to kill more of them than they killed of us. I think Patton had a great quote regarding that. Kind of like sitting here 60+ years later and wanting to sentence this 90 year old man for war crimes that he may have committed. Jesus, who is still alive to testify against him and how can they actually pick him out of a lineup.